TOW "I just played a game, here are my thoughts" thread

[discomute]

Hi everyone, I am very keen to hear early reports on our army in TOW. How did we go? I would imagine a lot are playing but don't have time to draw up a full scale battle report for this forum. Use this as a fun thread for your latest game.

Did you have a win? What units worked? What didn't? Magic spells/lore/items?

 

[Kalisto]

I played last week a 1500 points game (have lot of units but not enough behemots for 2000 list).
I had Oldblood on carnosaurs, skink chief BSB on stegadon, 1 skink mage 2 with cube of darkness, 18 saurus warriors, skink wich javelin and blowpipes, 3 kroxigors, 5 chameleon and 5 terradons.

I played against beastman with 20 infantry with great weapon in rank of 6, 5 minotaurs and shaggoth. Lord minotaur and shaggoth had 2+ armour save and where more or less untouchable. Luckely i stopped shaggoth 4 turns with moonson spell and the lord couldnt reach a melee.

Minotaurs died due poisoning attacks, infantry in melee against stegadon+ saurus. I won by 400 points more or less.

Some through:
Magic can be nasty even at level 2, if the enemy doesn't a a level 4 caster. Mostly due the limited dispel range of only 18. At 2000 points if you don't play a slann i would suggest at least 2 casters, a wand of jet and a cube of darkness.

My oldlord on cold one got ogre blade, it worked well against minotaurs but i don't see any way to kill all monster in the future without a carnosaur or someone with armour save of 2+. I wouldn't play that but I guess it would be necessary at 2000
Javelin mobility is amazing!
The skink chief an giant bow was nice, however big target don't give longer the +1 to hit and you hit at 3. Even if you wound big monster had good armour save and I manage just to wound once shaggoth for 3 wounds, but after 4 rounds of shooting...So not completely satisfied.

TOW has become a monster/herohammer, completely different from 6-7 edition as i played. Thats the biggest thing i worry about. Not sure i like it. Not sure either legacy army are so well done or balanced.

 

[discomute]

I don't think a skink chief can fire the stegadons giant bow.

How did monsoon stop shaggoth? Difficult terrain slowed his move down and stopped line of sight to charge?

 

[Kalisto]

I don't think a skink chief can fire the stegadons giant bow.

How did monsoon stop shaggoth? Difficult terrain slowed his move down and stopped line of sight to charge?

Yes you can, sure about that ad already checked with other experts.

It says it stops line of sight

 

[discomute]

Yes you can, sure about that ad already checked with other experts.

I've been wrong very recently so I took my time with this one. I have reread the rules, found the reddit thread, and consulted with my group. Missing from the lizardmen book is text that is in most howdah's that says "During the Shooting phase, one of the X (Skink) Crew may fire this weapon instead of their X (Javelins)". There is nothing to indicate that the Chief now considered Skink Crew, he is just riding the Stegadon. Indeed, they are called Skink Crew in the rules.

I admit the absence of this text is odd, but there are other issues with the Lizardmen book (like how we technically don't have any characters) that makes me thinks this is an oversight. Indeed if you wanted to be super RAWey about the missing text, I'd say if anything it indicates the bow can't be fired at all (which is obviousyl ridiculous).

Overall the larger point is that I can see absolutely no argument whatsoever to indicate that the Chief can fire.

 

[discomute]

So I just watched Tabletop Titans 2000 lizards v vamps

Firstly their knowledge of the rules is still at a beginning phase, definitely raised an eyebrow at the amulet of protection on the Slann. Also he seem to think the Kroxigor had an armour save of 3+ - I reckon he was looking at the minimum unit size. My notes from that:

- The Carnosaur crushed it, even though he didnt realise it had closed order
- The Stegadon took on a dynamite unit and just died. With a chief on its back...
- The Kroxigor did better than I thought but yes armour of 3+ the entire game was brutal
- We did not appear to have many answers for their general in with heavy cav (Blood Knights)
- High magic did little for the game. The Slann was easy to protect but damn that was a lot of points for just a few small spells a turn
- Becalming Cogitation basically got 1 extra dispel for the game across 6 turns. I found that facinating. I thought it would more like 3-4.
- This is the THIRD battle report I've seen where skinks get charged and do not stand and shoot. Is there a reason no one is standing and shooting?? As far as I can tell, it is all upside.
- Leadership roles were important and they had no BSB. I assumed my slann would be general and BSB but now I wonder if it should be split so cover more of the battlefield

 

[Kalisto]

From what you tell they couldn’t play….missing such things is quite basic and I shouldn’t base observation on such report. Just interested in what is the dynamite?

 

[discomute]

Haha I can't remember

It was 3 monsterous infantry.

PS. I think early on all information is good information

Edit - I think vargeists charged them

 

[Kalisto]

Tested today against Bretonnia. He had duke with monster slayer virtue and prophetess level 4. Questing and realm knights x6, pegasus knights x3 and 2x12 skirmisher bowmen and 18 x2 infantry.

Bretonnia is OP for some rule as automatic disruption at first charge but anyway.

I tested the Slann with skink priest on ancient stegadon with engine of gods. Rest of army was unchanged from the test before (18 saurus)

My throughs:
Priest couldn't reach melee with stegadon, i was so fear of the duke so i had to had him in an angle protected by kroxigor, the tactic worked well and i could use both priest and engine of gods magic missiles but i couldnt charge in melee. He survived at least...(375 points)
However i don't know if i would play it anymore with skink on it, maybe a test with 2 engine of gods and 2 priests its worth but either idk.

Slann was nice, especially with looe familiar, he did he did the game and could even kill the enemy caster left unguarded. Was lucky on it. He had no magical weapons and never charged him. On the other hand i had him far away and on the rear of his troops.

Sincerely 3 pegasus knights charged my infantry (18 saurus) and i got to test at -4. Wasn't nice. The isrupting rule is completely OP and hard to play against. The same for counter charge. The only good things is that doesn't work against infantry = kroxigor!!

 

[discomute]

Tested today against Bretonnia. He had duke with monster slayer virtue and prophetess level 4. Questing and realm knights x6, pegasus knights x3 and 2x12 skirmisher bowmen and 18 x2 infantry.

Bretonnia is OP for some rule as automatic disruption at first charge but anyway.

I tested the Slann with skink priest on ancient stegadon with engine of gods. Rest of army was unchanged from the test before (18 saurus)

My throughs:
Priest couldn't reach melee with stegadon, i was so fear of the duke so i had to had him in an angle protected by kroxigor, the tactic worked well and i could use both priest and engine of gods magic missiles but i couldnt charge in melee. He survived at least...(375 points)
However i don't know if i would play it anymore with skink on it, maybe a test with 2 engine of gods and 2 priests its worth but either idk.

Slann was nice, especially with looe familiar, he did he did the game and could even kill the enemy caster left unguarded. Was lucky on it. He had no magical weapons and never charged him. On the other hand i had him far away and on the rear of his troops.

Sincerely 3 pegasus knights charged my infantry (18 saurus) and i got to test at -4. Wasn't nice. The isrupting rule is completely OP and hard to play against. The same for counter charge. The only good things is that doesn't work against infantry = kroxigor!!

What lore did your slann take, what spells were working for you?

How are the terradons going?

 

[Kalisto]

Terradons bad, he killed one with a spell and when I should have marched to launch rocks on skirmishers I failed discipline 9. On the other hand he had no trebuchets (we played at 1500) either they would have been great.
I tried for first time elementalism. A good one, however plague of rust has to been used before movement as hex at 21” isn’t so much. The good thing is that can be casted in melee

 

[Ragetoad]

I played last week a 1500 points game (have lot of units but not enough behemots for 2000 list).
I had Oldblood on carnosaurs, skink chief BSB on stegadon, 1 skink mage 2 with cube of darkness, 18 saurus warriors, skink wich javelin and blowpipes, 3 kroxigors, 5 chameleon and 5 terradons.

I played against beastman with 20 infantry with great weapon in rank of 6, 5 minotaurs and shaggoth. Lord minotaur and shaggoth had 2+ armour save and where more or less untouchable. Luckely i stopped shaggoth 4 turns with moonson spell and the lord couldnt reach a melee.

Minotaurs died due poisoning attacks, infantry in melee against stegadon+ saurus. I won by 400 points more or less.

Some through:
Magic can be nasty even at level 2, if the enemy doesn't a a level 4 caster. Mostly due the limited dispel range of only 18. At 2000 points if you don't play a slann i would suggest at least 2 casters, a wand of jet and a cube of darkness.

My oldlord on cold one got ogre blade, it worked well against minotaurs but i don't see any way to kill all monster in the future without a carnosaur or someone with armour save of 2+. I wouldn't play that but I guess it would be necessary at 2000
Javelin mobility is amazing!
The skink chief an giant bow was nice, however big target don't give longer the +1 to hit and you hit at 3. Even if you wound big monster had good armour save and I manage just to wound once shaggoth for 3 wounds, but after 4 rounds of shooting...So not completely satisfied.

TOW has become a monster/herohammer, completely different from 6-7 edition as i played. Thats the biggest thing i worry about. Not sure i like it. Not sure either legacy army are so well done or balanced.

You mention the possibility of replacing the slann but don't slanns have to be included in the old world armies?

 

[Kalisto]

No you don't. Only Saurus 1+

 

[Fxt]

yesterday i played vs HE

1500 points
i Played slann necro lore familiar ring, a vet on carno bsb meteoric ts5 GW, 15 saurus shield and CG, 30 skinks (10 scout) w jav, 3 kroxy, 5 chamaleon and a solar bastilodon

he played archmage 4 mr2 High magic, a lion bsb on foot, 2x5 archers, seaguard with razor banner, lions, 1 eagle, a tyranoc chariot, some sister with ring.

scenery was flank attack.


game was fierce, at the end he had on field only his lion untouched, i had my vet, the slann and 2 kroxy (and a single skink hidden behind a hill).

some random thoughts: necro is problably not effective with my playstyle, range is too short and spells are not really usefull, maybe i have to try with a battle priest to cast the panic test?. chamaleons are really useless, shoot on archers on 6+, then proceded to die under a fireball. skirmisher are better in any possible way. really like the bastilodon, the beam is a real threat. the carnosaur is simply not a threat, rather an easy target: my opponent simply ignored him all the game even when reached the flank. saurus did their job (lasting 2 rounds against ethereal lions) but what i missed was something to countercharge. probably a job for cold ones, but unfortunately they seems to be unplayable.

on a side note, i failed to dispel every single turn both ethereal and drain magic, so was impossible for me to try fighting the lions, or shooting spells at them.

 

[Kalisto]

Really interesting and thank for your report!

As I suspected necromancy has too short range to be effective.. and no enough damage either… did you take moonson as signature spell?

I still chameleons, they aren’t so bad even if costly, but maybe just to hunt war machines. But I guess he had a lot of defense with his archers. about that maybe a Stegadon would have been a better defence, even if it’s costly.

Have you consider also carnosaur bsb med chotec banner? So he isn’t an easy target. Personally I don’t like meteoric iron either. For just 10 points more you can get a ward save and eventually have both armour and ward save. Now you have only a bad armour save

 

[discomute]

Interesting report! I wouldn't think necromancy was that short (12, 15, 15, 18) - compared to the 4 best elementalism (15, 15, 15, 21) it's a difference but not a huge one? What spells did you opt for? I would guess the best use of the -leader rolls would be terror and fear.

Other suprise was that the carnosaur wasn't a threat... Did you mean because you had nothing to combat ethereal? Yes the talisman of protection is a must have I think, I do like meteoric with a GW but the talisman would come first I'd think.

 

[Fxt]

Really interesting and thank for your report!

As I suspected necromancy has too short range to be effective.. and no enough damage either… did you take moonson as signature spell?

I still chameleons, they aren’t so bad even if costly, but maybe just to hunt war machines. But I guess he had a lot of defense with his archers. about that maybe a Stegadon would have been a better defence, even if it’s costly.

Have you consider also carnosaur bsb med chores banner? So he isn’t an easy target. Personally I don’t like meteoric iron either. For just 10 points more you can get a ward save and eventually have both armour and ward save. Now you have only a bad armour save

no i didn't take moonson, i took unquiet spirits, spiritual vortex, curse of years and spirit leech.

sorry, i wrote "ts5" as i usually do in my language (in italian ward save is "tiro salvezza", or TS for short XD)
carnosaur had great weapon, meteoric and talisman of protection. warbanner as magic standard. for "easy target" i mean that he isn't simply a monster you can throw at units, as if was a dragon. he can be overwhelmed on static resolution (or killed, again lions XD). of course he also suffer from shooting (expecially from poisoned large count shooting list)

 

[Kalisto]

Interesting report! I wouldn't think necromancy was that short (12, 15, 15, 18) - compared to the 4 best elementalism (15, 15, 15, 21) it's a difference but not a huge one? What spells did you opt for? I would guess the best use of the -leader rolls would be terror and fear.

Other suprise was that the carnosaur wasn't a threat... Did you mean because you had nothing to combat ethereal? Yes the talisman of protection is a must have I think, I do like meteoric with a GW but the talisman would come first I'd think.

3” is a big difference in this edition, especially for hex that you have to cast before movement! The mainly difference is that elementalism (except magic missile) + moonson target you or create a vortex between you and the enemies. Necromancy need to target enemies to be effective. So in practice is not just 3” difference but much more.

I had also considered wandering deliberation to get the demonic magic missile with 18” range, but the other spells don’t appeal me a lot.

 

[discomute]

no i didn't take moonson, i took unquiet spirits, spiritual vortex, curse of years and spirit leech.

sorry, i wrote "ts5" as i usually do in my language (in italian ward save is "tiro salvezza", or TS for short XD)
carnosaur had great weapon, meteoric and talisman of protection. warbanner as magic standard. for "easy target" i mean that he isn't simply a monster you can throw at units, as if was a dragon. he can be overwhelmed on static resolution (or killed, again lions XD). of course he also suffer from shooting (expecially from poisoned large count shooting list)

That's the spells I would have taken. Interesting they didn't deliver.

I have to admit I'm confused about the carno v white lions. Unless ethereal was the sole issue. My maths without a calculator says 6 white lions should do an average of 0.5 wounds against your scarvet-carno a turn with a combat res of 4.5. You should do have around 4 wounds in return with a combat res of 6.

3” is a big difference in this edition, especially for hex that you have to cast before movement! The mainly difference is that elementalism (except magic missile) + moonson target you or create a vortex between you and the enemies. Necromancy need to target enemies to be effective. So in practice is not just 3” difference but much more.

I take your point about Curse of the Years although you can always sub that out for Monsoon.

 

[Fxt]

That's the spells I would have taken. Interesting they didn't deliver.

I have to admit I'm confused about the carno v white lions. Unless ethereal was the sole issue. My maths without a calculator says 6 white lions should do an average of 0.5 wounds against your scarvet-carno a turn with a combat res of 4.5. You should do have around 4 wounds in return with a combat res of 6.

etereal was of course an issue (as i said, on six rounds i never dispelled that spell)
going into detail, he had 18 lions with warbanner, inside the units the archmage general and noble bsb with battle banner. so he had 2 ranks and 4-6 standard points. even without ethereal, using the lions king's guard ability he could have simply challenged the carno and win on resolution.