Guys what do you think about Bastiladon? i am bit split upon it. I mean i LOVE the miniature and couldn't play it in 6 and 7ed that i play since last year however 175 points with Solar Engine are not few (and without it i don't see any point to play it) The good is: Armour save is still a solid 3+ The Beam of Chotec have a 24" range that means that you can easily play it as defensive artillery and you will be often out of range for caster level 2. This is however hard to play since you want to give the initiative bonus and protect the flanks since enemies get no bonus flanking you. +1 initiative can be good to just avoid to attack at the same time as stomp attacks or great weapon for both bastiladon but even kroxigor and saurus. The bad is: Beam of Chotec require a 7+ dice roll to be casted, that means 50% more or less. Movement 4 (was it before? I don't know) 4 wounds that means only strength unit 4 and NO disruption of units on the flank/rear (as stegadon can do) 4 strength...not so good compared to all other monsters. Even if AP-3 is as the others. Compared to a Troglodon (rare unit of course) that has strength 5 wound 5 and also a caster level 1 (that with easy can cast signature spell of battle magic and also dispel in case of emergency) for only 25 pints more i even more undecided. So what do you think?
I think it is just ok in a heavy Saurus build. Going to I2 is nice so you get to hit before Great Weapons in prolonged combats and stomps as well. If you are not buffing Sauri, he is probably not worth it, the S4 really doing him in. He is also sadly not a Behemoth, making it so his Stomps are at ap-0 as well, which is annoying for sure. I honestly think the Stegadon is what he should be compared against. He has less reliable shooting, S4 instead of S6, he is slower.. The only thing he has on them is the extra I, which is why you take him IMHO.
You also have an 58% chance to cast due to how 2d6 dice work out, which is pretty ok. The real problem is enemy dispels, which makes it quite unreliable.
I agree, the Stegadon is A tier (or S with a skink chief) and the Troglodon is B tier. I am not certain about the Bastiladon but I think it's straddling the A and B line. If I could fit in a stegadon I always would, but if I didn't have the points....
I made a 2000 list and could fit 1) Stegadon with skink chief and giant bow 2) an ancient Stegadon with engine of gods 3) eventually a Bastiladon but then I have only 16 saurus infantry (I am not a lover of infantry either). I play kroxigor too. The question is if after you have 1-2 Stegadon it’s useful or maybe just point on more saurus… I don’t know really. probably the best will be 2 Bastiladon on each flank. Casters will not be within 24 of both often and in this case if you are lucky to launch the bolt it will have a minimum launch value of 9, that’s quite hard to dispel with fated dispel since you need at least a 10
The thing I like about Bastiladons is they’re a pretty reliable anvil. Movement 4 means they’re too slow to run on the flanks but they move the same as your line troops, give them initiative 5 on the charge and won’t give up combat res for being flanked or reared so you can use ‘em to hold up an enemy unit for a turn or two and give your temple guard or Saurus a flank charge (plus T5, AS 3+, stubborn, immune to psychology @ ld 9 w/ a slann means he can stand up pretty well to most core infantry). Having terror causing unit can also be really useful in the center of your army. The Beam of Chotec is really just a bonus to everything else. It’s not something that you rely on but will be nice to to have early game when the bastiladon is out of dispel range of the enemy wizard.
I don’t think comparing the Bastiladon to the Stegadon is the best comparison since they fulfill different functions. Stegadons obviously belong on the flanks whereas Bastiadons are way too slow to that deployment. I think a better comparison would be Saurus or Temple Guard and the Bastiladon since, I see all three being mainline units.
I have been less than impressed with Bastiladon but yesterday he really shined vs woodelves. I faced a MSU list with many characters hiding between the different archer units. Skink scouts managed to panic or reduce their numbers so that bastiladon could suddenly target the lone characters. Sniped off 2xMages with just one Bastiladon. I'm definitely getting a second one for my army!
I feel they're a B: agree best function is as Stubborn, 3+ Armour save Anvil. The plain version is ok as both it and a set of Swarms can tarpit a whole flank as they take so long to kill. unfortunately, they are so slow, low S, they don't do much damage. Beam is great but I'm fiding overall the list has to march and charge as it can't sit back against most armies. This means Beam doesn't get off much and it still needs to be cast and not be dispelled. 3D3 S5 -2AP is a big deal though. I haven't had much to do with the +1 Initiative bonus. When building a list I start with Skinks (javelins), Carnosaur, Ancient Steg, Slann. When I go to fill out core, I find min 140 + Skinks or Swarms is where I end up. This means I just need more punch from my noncore, noncharacters. With a Steg locked in, I've used lists with Bastiladon, but have settled on Kroxigor for now for more speed and am experimenting with Ripperdactyls as the metagame rewards Dragons + movement (them) and mobile MSU (they murder them) at the moment.
Its both true and wrong what you say imho. I mean S4 is no high but -3 AP is amazing. You move 4 and shoot 24, is really good range and you don't need necessarily to march with everything. Against many other melee armies os just better to wait. Consider that both kroxigor stegadon and so on in the company have NO swiftstride. Only carnosaur and ripperdactly has. So sometimes is better to wait one turn, go around with skinks and harass the enemy (and shoot with magic the only good thing we have)
I've tested 2x Bastiladon lists a lot recently and they really enable a slow and steady playstyle that forces your opponent to come to you. Lasers and poison spears give a shooting edge over most armies, especially since our scouts can harass enemy warmachines. Single Bastiladon is a bit meh since your opponent can just burn fated dispel on the laser. One Bastiladon + Slann is already much better and once you go up to 2xBastiladon you're much more likely to get your lasers off. They are also alright as roadblocks so I often deploy them guarding my flanks, but only if enemy doesn't have casters there. Keeping them away from dispel range is key. Another good place for them is next to the minimum size Saurus unit. Bastiladon takes a charge with Stubborn and then you get a charge with your Saurus.
I have considered to play 2 bastiladons but 1) don't have the second one 2) i am a bit undecided about what to remove for it. How do you manage the thing? No cavalry/stegadon/kroxigor to get the points? Less infantery (but you still need 500 of core)?
Here's my previous list for example. If you drop the Slann the list becomes a lot more flexible. === Solar Host 2000 [2000 pts] Warhammer: The Old World, Lizardmen === ++ Characters [997 pts] ++ Slann Mage-Priest [395 pts] - Hand weapon - General - Lore Familiar - Ruby Ring of Ruin - Becalming Cogitation - Battle Magic Skink Chief [288 pts] - Additional hand weapon - Light armour (Calloused hide) - Battle Standard Bearer - Stegadon [Giant bow] Saurus Scar-Veteran [314 pts] - Great weapon - Heavy armour (Scaly skin) - Carnosaur - Talisman of Protection - Armour of Meteoric Iron ++ Core Units [653 pts] ++ 17 Temple Guard [293 pts] - Hand weapons - Halberds - Shields - Heavy armour (Scaly skin) - Revered Guardian (champion) - Standard bearer - Musician 10 Saurus Warriors [140 pts] - Hand weapons - Shields - Heavy armour (Scaly skin) 10 Skink Skirmishers [50 pts] - Hand weapons - Javelins - Shields - Light armour (Calloused hides) 10 Skink Skirmishers [50 pts] - Hand weapons - Javelins - Shields - Light armour (Calloused hides) 10 Skink Skirmishers [60 pts] - Hand weapons - Javelins - Shields - Light armour (Calloused hides) - Scouts 10 Skink Skirmishers [60 pts] - Hand weapons - Javelins - Shields - Light armour (Calloused hides) - Scouts ++ Special Units [350 pts] ++ Bastiladon [175 pts] - Hand weapons - Javelins - Thunderous bludgeon - Solar Engine Bastiladon [175 pts] - Hand weapons - Javelins - Thunderous bludgeon - Solar Engine
Interesting. There are sneaky options in the Lizardmen list. When I pick up the second Bastiladon I'll give this a try. My personal play style is to be more hedge and counterattack than just push forward so this appeals to me. I'm glad you still have room for a Steg - how would you build it with no Slann?
Without Slann I usually take Oldblood+BSB stegadon and then a fast option. But I feel like there's plenty of options to build whatever you want: Double Engine, Double Carno, Triple Stegadon. (Next game I'm taking Carno+Triple Stegadon+2xBastiladon. Monster smash!) Key to designing 2xBastiladon lists is having tight core with plenty of skinks. My preferred 500 pts in 2k list is: ++ Core Units [500 pts] ++ 10 Saurus Warriors [140 pts] (Hand weapons, Shields, Heavy armour (Scaly skin)) 3 Jungle Swarms [120 pts] (Hand weapons) 10 Skink Skirmishers [50 pts] (Hand weapons, Javelins, Shields, Light armour (Calloused hides)) 10 Skink Skirmishers [50 pts] (Hand weapons, Javelins, Shields, Light armour (Calloused hides)) 12 Skink Skirmishers [70 pts] (Hand weapons, Javelins, Shields, Light armour (Calloused hides), Scouts) 12 Skink Skirmishers [70 pts] (Hand weapons, Javelins, Shields, Light armour (Calloused hides), Scouts)
you can't take two scouts, need to change one to a vanguard and I guess add a skink for the 500. Bastiladon, the solar enginge is garbage but fun. They are very very slow. Overall, definitely B for my mind. At best.
I think you're reading the rule wrong: 0-1 per 1000 points may have one of the following rules: scout or vanguard. At 2000 points 0-2 units can take either scout or vanguard. When it says "one of the following" it just means you can't take vanguard+scout on the same unit. Agree on the B-tier, but the ranged pressure they provide does enable a different playstyle to lizardmen(which I really enjoy). It's shooting is definitely still too unreliable to reach higher tiers.
Yep you are correct Its a double whammy from Bastiladon. Its so slow I really want to march with it. Moving 4 just to get a shot off is brutal when the shot is so unreliable. I've played 3 games with it and haven't wounded a thing yet with solar engine.