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8th Ed. Skink cohort.. What? They don't come with 2A, PF S/T4...

Pinktaco said:
Ugh.. I just feel as if we rely more on our skirmish units to redirect nasty things than other factions? :P
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I think there is a lot of truth to this.

Skinks seem to be the solution to tons of a lizardmen players problems.
 
I feel a need to explicitly state some stuff that has been suggested in this thread already, but maybe not expressed in quite this manner.

Against tough opponents (WS4, S6 or better), Skinks and HW+S Saurus die at exactly the same rate. Against such opponents, Skinks actually die slower than Spear Saurus, due to the 6+ parry save.

You can get 2 Skinks and a point left over for the price of one Saurus. So, if they all die the same, your tarpit unit will wind up lasting twice as long if it's made of skinks. Plus it will be a lot more mobile and better able to engage the intended target, thanks to M6.

Note that this only matters if your strategy is to tarpit or redirect a powerful enemy unit. It's true that the Saurus have a better chance of actually winning combats, especially if they happen to be fighting something that's not too killy and that they can injure. They're also better targets for magic support, such as Wyssan's. But the problem with Saurus is that there are a lot of opponents they have trouble winning against, meaning their role is often reduced to just tarpitting an enemy unit while you wait for support to arrive. In those cases, its often more efficient to spend your points on Skinks.
 
RipperDerek said:
I feel a need to explicitly state some stuff that has been suggested in this thread already, but maybe not expressed in quite this manner.

Against tough opponents (WS4, S6 or better), Skinks and HW+S Saurus die at exactly the same rate. Against such opponents, Skinks actually die slower than Spear Saurus, due to the 6+ parry save.

You can get 2 Skinks and a point left over for the price of one Saurus. So, if they all die the same, your tarpit unit will wind up lasting twice as long if it's made of skinks. Plus it will be a lot more mobile and better able to engage the intended target, thanks to M6.

Note that this only matters if your strategy is to tarpit or redirect a powerful enemy unit. It's true that the Saurus have a better chance of actually winning combats, especially if they happen to be fighting something that's not too killy and that they can injure. They're also better targets for magic support, such as Wyssan's. But the problem with Saurus is that there are a lot of opponents they have trouble winning against, meaning their role is often reduced to just tarpitting an enemy unit while you wait for support to arrive. In those cases, its often more efficient to spend your points on Skinks.
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This is of course assuming your in bsb and general range. Testing on leadership 5, even with steadfast is a lot different then 8.

And if you lose steadfast from a big slave block in your flank? Youll be lucky to get any combat res from wounds so youre just counting on standard bearer and ranks to hold combats.

You lose combat with even 1 eithout steadfasr youre testing on cold blooded 4. I wouldnt want to take that test very often.

Skinks dont tarpit as well because they have ass for leadership even if you throw a krox or 3 in, its either going to die in one round or your inexpensive tarpit is suddently a 300 plus point unit
 
This is the primary reason to purchase Kroxigor - it ups their leadership to 7, which especially helps with panic tests due to shooting or chaff breaking. But either way, if the Slann isn't around, you should rethink your tarpit strategy, regardless of whether you're using Saurus or Skinks.

Skinks tarpit vastly better than Saurus, which is why the skink cloud is one of the best performing tournament lists.
 
RipperDerek said:
This is the primary reason to purchase Kroxigor - it ups their leadership to 7, which especially helps with panic tests due to shooting or chaff breaking. But either way, if the Slann isn't around, you should rethink your tarpit strategy, regardless of whether you're using Saurus or Skinks.
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I added in an edit about the krox. Its either going to die in one round (especially against ws 4 s 6 enemies) or make your unit so expensive it defeats the purpose

Cold blooded leadership 8 can be away from your general. Leadership 5 will never be.
 
Neither of those things are true. A unit of 36 skinks with 3 krox has 8 ranks and costs only 340 points. 9 wounds of krox take quite a while to kill, especially given that supporting attacks cannot target them.
 
RipperDerek said:
Neither of those things are true. A unit of 36 skinks with 3 krox has 8 ranks and costs only 340 points. 9 wounds of krox take quite a while to kill, especially given that supporting attacks cannot target them.
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I pretty specifically pointed out itll die in one turn OR itll cost so many points its no longer a tarpit.

And if the argument is against ws 4 str6, then your krox are gonna get minced up. Theyll be wounding on 2s and hitting on 3s most likely no as for the krox. They will die and die fast against thay kind of unit.
 
Sorry for double post.

On the skink cloud point, almost no tournament lists run large blocks of skrox or skink cohorts simce the new book. 1 or 2 blocks of skrox were very common but no longer.

1 block of saurus 20-27 prolly with 5 or 6 units of minimum unit size skinks. Mostly skirmishers, some cohorts if you need cheaper.
 
Yes, and I responded NEITHER of those things are true. They neither die in one turn NOR are too expensive. That unit costs 60% of what a comparable Saurus block costs.
 
RipperDerek said:
Yes, and I responded NEITHER of those things are true. They neither die in one turn NOR are too expensive. That unit costs 60% of what a comparable Saurus block costs.
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What? 340 points is 60 percent of a saurus block?


I disagree a block of 30 saurus with full command is 360 points. And thats going to arguable do any job better than a unit of 30 odd skinks and 3 krox. 3 krox is 13 saurus with points left over. Those 3 krox dont have parry have less wounds and attacks, and really only have their s7 as an advantage. They cant stomp through the skinks and no longer prevent the skinks from getting stomped.

Ideally theyd be for different ourposes but thays not what we are arguing.

Phones dying! Obviously to each their own, and I dont think running cohorts or skrox over saurus will ever be a completely awful idea,I just think if youre talking about an ideal list with the best options skrox and units of cohorts over 10 have no place.
 
This is why I said a "comparable" saurus block, not a "random saurus block with 37% fewer models." I'm convinced at this point that you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, without actually stopping to consider the topic.

Which will last longer as a tarpit, given that they die at exactly the same rate: a 6x5 block of saurus (30 models), or a 6x8 block of skinks (48)? The saurus will lose steadfast after only 1 round vs. a lot of elite infantry. The same unit of Skroxigor will be steadfast for 4 rounds, thanks to the additional 3 ranks. The difference is night and day, and plain to anyone who has play tested the two units.
 
Case in point - a horde of hammerers (ws5 s6 asl t4 5+)

That costs 480 points, which (humor me) buys you 68 poison skinks or 43 saurus.

In a horde (makes calculation easier). The hammerers kill 14 models of each. The saurus kill 9 and the skinks kill 4.4. This is a bad matchup in general, with the point differential being -46 vs Saurus and -46 vs skinks. Interesting.

That's in horde, what about five wide? Hammerers kill 9.7 Saurus of each per turn. The skinks will be steadfast for 6 combat phases, the saurus 3.

I mean - it is a role. Many other armies take core whose only job is to die slowly and strip ranks. Ours have poison and a ranged attack. If your list is a dinosaur stampede (cold ones, stegadons, carnosaurs) M6 steadfast rank stripping could be just the ticket.
 
Andy06r said:
Case in point - a horde of hammerers (ws5 s6 asl t4 5+)

That costs 480 points, which (humor me) buys you 68 poison skinks or 43 saurus.

In a horde (makes calculation easier). The hammerers kill 14 models of each. The saurus kill 9 and the skinks kill 4.4. This is a bad matchup in general, with the point differential being -46 vs Saurus and -46 vs skinks. Interesting.

That's in horde, what about five wide? Hammerers kill 9.7 Saurus of each per turn. The skinks will be steadfast for 6 combat phases, the saurus 3.

I mean - it is a role. Many other armies take core whose only job is to die slowly and strip ranks. Ours have poison and a ranged attack. If your list is a dinosaur stampede (cold ones, stegadons, carnosaurs) M6 steadfast rank stripping could be just the ticket.
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I all you want your 480 point unit to do is hold up combat then i agree, cohorts seem to be superior.

But how many times is that really the case? In the given example saurus are killing twice as many on average. Means they are losing combat by ~5 less each turn. Means ~5 less are attacking. Means after two rounds ~10 less are attacking.

I just think its a little more complex then "against ws4s6 enemies cohorts are superior"

There seem to be a lot of variables at play that could change things up.
 
Yes, a 480 point tarpit is a bad idea, but it was an argument.

The lizardmen army book probably has the most point efficient tarpit killer (core saurus) so we don't really need rank breaking units, especially since skinks cough up CR.

One list where I have successfully used cohorts (well - skroxigor) in the new book is a cav and stegadon heavy list. Two stegadons thunder stomping is scary, but that unit is steadfast until they all die. 6 ranks of M6 cohort can break steadfast and turn a grind into a rout. That's the only situation I can think of where I reach for cohorts instead of saurus or skirmishers.
 
Andy06r said:
Yes, a 480 point tarpit is a bad idea, but it was an argument.

The lizardmen army book probably has the most point efficient tarpit killer (core saurus) so we don't really need rank breaking units, especially since skinks cough up CR.

One list where I have successfully used cohorts (well - skroxigor) in the new book is a cav and stegadon heavy list. Two stegadons thunder stomping is scary, but that unit is steadfast until they all die. 6 ranks of M6 cohort can break steadfast and turn a grind into a rout. That's the only situation I can think of where I reach for cohorts instead of saurus or skirmishers.
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I never thought of it with a cav/monster list

I guess if anything this discussion proves the lizardmen core is a little more diverse than its often given credit.
 
So when is poison worth it? I mean, is it worth considering if all we want to do is tarpit?
 
maybe poisoncohort vs GW ogre bunch?
i think ive pondered this some time ago and they do better than sauruses in that match up
eventually i think they will lose tho
 
where massive cohorts fall over is when a single spell or shot that damages each model kicks in ie

fulminating cage

rod of death

liz spell that I cant for the life of me remember its name. does a S4 hit per model. 30 models would have 9 models left after this casting.

stone throwers, gyro copters or sallies would have a field day vs T2 horde units. T4 saurus on the other hand will take the hit and be ok.

As for supporting stegs with cohorts for the rank and std I would be extremely wary of doing this. A smart player will put all possible attacks on the skinks to generate CR. Imagine a VC blender lord in contact with skinks...could turn a solo steg win into a loss.
 
Rocdocta said:
where massive cohorts fall over is when a single spell or shot that damages each model kicks in ie

fulminating cage

rod of death

liz spell that I cant for the life of me remember its name. does a S4 hit per model. 30 models would have 9 models left after this casting.

stone throwers, gyro copters or sallies would have a field day vs T2 horde units. T4 saurus on the other hand will take the hit and be ok.

As for supporting stegs with cohorts for the rank and std I would be extremely wary of doing this. A smart player will put all possible attacks on the skinks to generate CR. Imagine a VC blender lord in contact with skinks...could turn a solo steg win into a loss.
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you could say the same for saurus.

Purple sun, Pit of shades.

And any models saurus lose are a harder more expensive loss than skinks.

on the VC lord - he can be challenged no? and unless he's going to kill more than 10 models i'll most likely still be steadfast for a turn or two due to sheer numbers. - The stegs will stil generate a tonne of wounds on whatever they contact - taking shooting into consideration (a trait saurus does not posses) i'd bet that the unit (it can be Vampire counts since you insist) will have very few numbers left after the full go around, not to say they didn't "win" combat, but the skinks ought to be steadfast, and both / the steggie should be stubborn.

Besides every unit has bad matchups, you've only really proved your ability to sum up those of skinks while discounting or purposefully forgetting to mention that saurus has any.

Noone here has argued that saurus are bad - the argument here is more whether or not they are worth it. I think they are, but i do think Skinks equal them in value enough for me to rely on them in more of my lists.
 
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