Star Trek vs. Star Wars (and a collection of memes)

First off, the force projection was a Last Jedi creation, let's not get into that. In what film did they pull Star Destroyers from orbit? If we go into the EU there are a lot of extreme demonstration sof overpowered individuals. The video games are even worse.

Even still, those characters had to earn those abilities through many years of hard training and study. Included in that were countless failures and major setbacks. I'll use the Darth Bane trilogy as an example again. Bane demonstrates some extremely powerful mastery of the force, however, we see how he slowly learned and acquired those skills. They weren't just gifted to him by an external political agenda. He suffered. He failed. He was wounded. He was humbled. And out of it all he grew. Given the rules of the story universe, Bane's abilities make sense but Rey's progression does not. It's hard to identify with it, because even in real life we don't learn real life skills that way.

Simple, if the character is (nearly) universally appreciated, like Ripley or Sarah Connor, they are likely badass heroes. If hoards of people spend countless hours debating and arguing (on forums, via YouTube videos, via fan backlash) a character's Mary Sue status, chances are there is something to it.

How come we don't see these debates raging on for characters like Brienne of Tarth or Arya Stark from GoT? The answer is that they are well written and not Mary Sues.

Of course they could retroactively go back and add things in to try bring some sense to it, but that is already a poor story telling recipe. That is placing a band aid over a wound, rather than avoiding the wound int he first place. This whole trilogy has been so poorly planned out. JJ creates a movie, and Rian Johnson ignores (shits on) it when making its sequel. Now JJ will probably (just a guess) do the same.

The movies should be able to stand on their own. Rey's powers are simply not justified. She learns at a rate that far out paces Luke or Anakin (and I believe I remember reading that George Lucas stated that Luke became the most powerful force user).

We do know that something special awoke in Rey... Disney identity politics (the most powerful force power of them all). So powerful in fact that it was able to turn a Star Wars movie (Solo) to a losing financial endeavor. Prior to Disney nobody was able to pull that one off.

As for her mechanical prowess, undoubtedly she would have learned quite a bit through her experiences growing up. However, Han has far greater experience than she does, especially when dealing with the Millennium Falcon. This is a prime example of her being a Mary Sue, there is no legitimate rationale provided in the movies that would justify her demonstrating greater proficiency repairing the Falcon than Han (who has worked and modified that particular ship for decades).

• Kylo stopping the blaster bolt was impressive and previously unseen.
• Rey lifting and throwing aside all those boulders was extremely powerful and far beyond what her training should allow. The ease at which she completed that task is greater than we have yet to see in the movies.
• Kylo was also able to pull information from people's minds.
• Jedi mind trick after no training

Kylo uses force choke:



So it is underwhelming because we don't see high jumping and force speed (the latter of which isn't nearly so exploited in any of the movies)?

While agree that he might not be fully trained (not like anybody can be fully trained anyways, there is always more to learn) but his training is infinitely more than hers at that point. She has received no training at that point and he has trained under both Luke and Snoke.

I understand he wasn't in the greatest state of mind, (killing his father, the battle between light and dark) but it still doesn't justify it. Her state of mind, although better than his, would also be less than ideal (thrown into a warzone for the first time ever, facing off against a practiced force user, seeing Han die, seeing Finn get brutalized).

Admittedly in this specific situation you could argue that she is not overpowered but only if you simultaneously argue that Kylo is completely incompetent. Perhaps it is a mixture of the two and I don't know which bothers me more (especially seeing as he is now the primary villain unless they bring Snoke back).

That's not how people learn things... not in the real world or in the Star Wars universe.

I've seen Messi play soccer, but that doesn't mean that I can go out and replicate what he can do. And I've had far more experience playing and practicing soccer than Rey has dabbling in the force.

No Star Wars character learns things so easily. So it is not an argument of whether the ability itself is overpowered, but rather how the character can perform it without any learning or justification. When we first saw Obi-Wan use the Jedi mind trick it wasn't overpowered because he has had the time and opportunity to learn it, but Rey has not, and that is why it is overpowered. It's a free skill that comes too easily.

 

Google might very well alter their search results based on the country of use, but it isn't the case that they believe what you say they believe, and I quote: "a country where obviously Google thinks people are too dumb to click on a link or understand the definition of a word if it is more than one sentence long."

You have no justification in making that statement. The fact that you are trying to justify and explain it away is more telling than the actually statement itself. "...a country where obviously Google thinks people are too dumb to click on a link..." are your words... not mine... not Google's. I can tell when I'm being played and the situation is being manipulated. Maybe you wrote them out of anger, maybe you didn't really mean them, maybe they don't represent your core values, but they are your words.

Rey feels like far more of a Mary Sue than Captain America (other than the name of course ). He isn't nearly as powerful as her (in relation to their respective universes; his abilities are meek compared to many of his enemies and allies), his abilities seem more justified and we see him fail and persevere (that is why he was chosen to receive the super solider serum).

While he is pretty much "all good", we do see him travel down some questionable paths in the sequel films.

He does possess some of the traits though, but they feel more justified and in line with the story.

In some ways, but he is highly reliant on those around him. He doesn't possess any supreme powers (except over the females of all species... I'll concede that one) though he does always win the day. He does show far more vulnerability throughout the series than Rey does.

Maybe... I've never watched any of those movies or read any of those books.



Ultimately, this is a tricky discussion for us to have since we don't even agree on the definition of Mary Sue. I think we are arguing for different things.

My primary argument, ignoring the term Mary Sue,

• is that she possesses powers that she has not earned and are not justified (hence OP)
• she performs tasks too easily and never experiences significant failures or setback
• she never has to suffer in order to grow, she just learns them on the fly
• her in-universe abilities are derived directly and forcefully by Disney's political agenda

 

Not a personal attack but:
Exhibit A: The Jedi Path, my own copy of an official Star Wars book, released in 2010, five years before the Force Awakens


Exhibit B: Contents of said book. Focus on Jedi Knight section


Exhibit C: The introduction to Alter Abilities, a section detailing various force abilities used by Jedi that allow the alteration of the environment


Exhibit D: Description of the ‘Doppelgänger’ Force ability, which allows for the projection of an image of oneself using the force


So, whether it supports your argument or not, can everybody please shut up about how the Last Jedi made up force projection and how it ‘has no basis in Legends Canon’ or anything else!?

I’m assuming the book you’re talking about is Aftermath: Empire’s End and I have that one as well, but I can’t find any quotes about Luke Skywalker dragging ships down with the force. What actually happened is that the Rebels had an advanced warship with very powerful tractor beams. When it went down, it latched them onto the Empire’s Super Star Destroyer, dragging it into the atmosphere with it and downing it. It’s an awesome moment that if it ever appears in films, would probably be on par with the Holdo manoever, but less supposedly canon breaking. If there is such a quote, I would assume it’s an Imperial Officer seeing it an panicking in a kind of “Oh f*** oh f*** Luke’s dragging our ships down” manner.

Sorry, I can deal with you two ripping each other’s throats out, but if one of you says something canonically wrong then it’s my turn to be furious! I’ve been dosed with plenty of gamma radiation as well, so don’t make me angry - you wouldn’t like me when I’m angry

But seriously though, this debate is why we can’t have nice things

 

First off, let me say that keeping up with this thread is getting to be hard work. I post a lot and it is overwhelming even for me. I just checked in on it and there are 4 gigantic posts awaiting reply. (I guess this is how my uber posting can feel for others... karma! )

Whether it is good or bad on a personal level is 100% subjective. However, overall it split the fan base and that cannot be considered a good thing. I maintain that TLJ backlash contributed greatly to Solo's failure. It was not the only contributing factor, but I would say it was significant.

I will agree that Rey is more likable than the Rogue One characters (at least for me) other than K2, who was pure gold. Rey has some positive attributes in that she is passionate and driven, but they just went way over the top. I want to see them build her up. I want to experience tension as she goes up against threats that seem overwhelming. At this point going into IX, there is no tension as she can stomp any of the villains.

If it were limited to a few people I would be inclined to agree. However, when there is so much backlash and criticism, there must be at least something behind it. As the expression goes: "where there is smoke there is fire". In the case of people discussing Rey as a "Mary Sue" there is not only smoke but also the equivalent of a thermonuclear explosion.

Silly me, I should have clarified that. I meant in the show. I have only read the first of the novels.

In the show, nobody really complains about those two being Mary Sues. Of course, the GoT show is far better planned and written than TLJ. I think at the very least we can agree on that.

I have many hobbies, but I've never considered political discussions to be one of them. Up until a couple of years ago I never even followed it, but now I have admittedly gone down that rabbit hole (and predominantly American politics and not Canadian, which is odd)

There is one thing I do want to make perfectly clear, as much I explore political topics, I don't want external politics in my movies and TV shows (unless that is the actual subject matter of the movie/show, which I probably won't watch anyways). Movies and shows (and video games too) are supposed to be an escape from the real world, not an indoctrination tool. I fully admit that I find it tremendously annoying and frustrating. It obviously doesn't effect everyone the same, but the more I explore the topic, the more evident it becomes to me. I think it is far more prevalent than you give it credit, so many movies and shows have embraced it.... Star Wars, Dr. Who, Star Trek, Ghostbusters (this one is the most blatant) and in a couple of weeks the MCU. Whenever I see it happening I instantly want that film/movie to fail so that hopefully the studios get the message and stop ruining the franchises. I got more enjoyment out of seeing Solo lose money than I got from the film itself... I never thought I would ever say that about a Star Wars movie!

Anyways, I understand that it is not your thing, however it is, in my opinion it is the fundamental reason why Rey is the way she is. That is the driving force behind it so it does unfortunately become integral to this discussion.

You wrote all those posts on your phone. Damn that is impressive; that would take me a billion years to write on my phone!

But so are other characters and they still had to learn it "the hard way". Anakin should be the preeminent natural, and while it takes him less time to learn things than other characters, things that take him years to learn are mastered by Rey instantly (consider how short of a time passes between the start of TFA and the end of TLJ). The same goes for Luke, who according to George Lucas becomes the strongest force user. He takes MUCH longer to learn things than Rey.

Your point on a specific EU character might very well be correct. While the EU contains some of my favorite stories (Bane trilogy and Thrawn trilogy) it also contains some of the worst (although not as bad as the holiday special of course). There extreme examples of overpowered things, be it near-invincible ships (Suncrusher) or force users that can make a Sun go supernova using the force. Some of these extra powers are cool, but others are pretty bad. But that doesn't justify making Rey bad as well.

Yes, but Messi spent a lifetime learning how to play soccer, learning a new trick simply builds upon that already well established foundation. Your example would be more akin to Rey spending a lifetime mastering the force and then relatively quickly picking up a new force skill. If Messi were Rey, he wouldn't have trained at all in his lifetime and wouldn't even need Ronaldhinho to show him the trick... he would just figure it out on the spot.

For a couple of reasons...

• it is hurting the story telling (how can any villain pose a threat to her)
• it is not respecting the Star Wars legacy and pre-established universe (breaking all the rules)
• less people are satisfied with it, so less people are enjoying it (splitting the fan base)
• it is driven by outside political motivations (this is well documented at this point)
• it is actually costing them money (Solo box office failure, poor toy/merchandise sales)
• it might irrevocably damage/ruin the franchise

It is worse because more people are invested in Star Wars. If they ruin some other series that I don't watch then I don't care at all, but because I love Star Wars it is far more impactful for me (and for the many people that feel as I do). I'm sure there are plenty of other shitty Mary Sue characters, but I don't care to engage with them so it is a moot point (from my point of view).

Also, Star Wars is a pre-existing franchise. If Disney wants to produce some brand new story with Mary Sues, then nobody will complain. Nothing is lost in that scenario (except Disney profits). But when something we love is damaged, it upsets us. (and I recognize that is not damaged for everyone, I speak the perspective of half the fandom that feels that it is)

I never viewed Han as being incompetent. Chewie is supposedly a competent mechanic, and Han is able to straighten him out and correct his mistakes. Plus Han made a bunch of special modifications himself across the years, he would know those systems inside and out.

Rey is a junker, she collects parts from crashed ships. It is quite a bold assumption to think that she has had the opportunity to work on the Falcon for any significant amount of time (and even then, she isn't even old enough to have worked on it for as long as Han).

Another classic example of them crapping on the beloved OT characters (Han, Luke, Admiral Ackbar) in favor of a new character that people don't love nearly as much (or at all). By all means, the new character can be made to shine, but don't make it as the expense of the older characters.

 

Honestly, let's just leave this behind. It isn't helping the situation and we are obviously not going to agree on it. I could very easily go on debating it, but what is the point? It isn't even on topic and can only lead to further fruitless arguing. I'm willing to let it go if you are.

That is precisely what I hate about the whole thing. I think that was a terrible move, they just shit on everything Star Wars. How did Rain Johnson not see that this would piss off the fans? The whole thing is a mess.

First off, Kylo has been shown to be pretty incompetent. I hate that he is being touted as being naturally stronger than the likes of Yoda, Palpatine or Vader. They might very well come up with some explanation, but that doesn't mean it will be a good one... it will just shift one argument to another.

Secondly, Luke and Anakin are said to be the strongest force users by George Lucas (although Anakin can't live up to his full potential because of his severe injuries and cybernetics). Nothing is more canon than the word of George Lucas. Disney may have bought the legal rights to the franchise, but Lucas created it. Disney can legally change whatever they want in the saga, but they can't change the heart of the fans or the true canon.

Firstly, she was not demonstrated to have any formalized training with her staff. She may be somewhat competent with it, but its not like she has had years of real training or a teacher/master to show her the proper techniques. Also, while skill with one weapon does help lessen the learning curve to master another, it isn't an absolute and instant transfer of mastery. Some elements transfer well, like timing and judging distance, but others have to be painstakingly learned. Sword fighting has a fairly steep learning curve (as compared to something like a spear for instance) Plus, Kylo had direct training with the lightsaber (under two masters no less), his skills should have been honed to the proper usage of that particular weapon.

Her force abilities would indeed help her against an ordinary person, but she is not fighting an ordinary person. Kylo's skills should be far better developed at that particular point in time, so that should actually work against her.

Anakin was skilled as a child, but they didn't undermine a beloved character to demonstrate it. Equally important, he didn't instantly outwit someone with decades of experience on a craft he has no experience with. The Falcon is Han's ship. He has had if for decades. He has worked on it for decades. He has personally modified it countless times. I'm not arguing that she shouldn't be good mechanically, only that she shouldn't be able to upstage him after spending so little time on the ship.

For all we know, that might be one of the first times she has flown a ship. At least that is what they have shown us (of course they could go back and change it to suit their needs). At least Anakin had years of pod-racing experience.

Give Rey a few more minutes and she'll school Poe at will.


It comes down to the fact that she is AMAZING at ALL of these things. And she is AMAZING at them near instantly, with little to no training (other than the mechanical skills, which is established, but not to the point where she should be able to school Han so easily).

Sorry, I should have specified in the context of the movies. Once we go into the EU it becomes an absolute and utter shit-storm of every possible power one can imagine. Anything goes in the EU. However, the movies have typically been much more grounded in terms of power level.

Your argument is justified and valid; it is my fault for not expressing my point more clearly!

 

I aim to please!

And in the words of the legendary Sir Alec Guinness:

I can confirm this, I have a copy of it as well - indeed I have copies of all the Titan Star Wars Books so far, including the Rebel Files that incorporated Rogue One. In fact I was thinking about the 'doppelganger' power that came from the Jedi Path when I first saw it in Episode VIII, which is probably why I thought it was a good move when most others are complaining that it's bad

 

Question is, where would the simulator be located? I don't remember seeing anything on a primitive, lifeless world like Jakku that looked like a simulator training academy or anything like that.

Referring to this dispute, I think there was also some prequel lore (can't remember if it's now legends or canon) where Count Dooku used the Force to pull General Grievous' Khaleesh starship to its destruction on a particular planet, mortally wounding Grievous, and Dooku had the remaining living parts of him installed into a droid body so that he became a cyborg, and then informing him that the Jedi did it or something like that to gain his loyalty. I think even his Magnaguards were designed to resemble a Khaleesh warlord's bodyguards.

 

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl that is exactly what I thought of too. If she is supposed to be a poor nobody who scavenges all day to barely get enough food to survive, how is she accessing a simulator? Who is allowing her to use this and to what purpose? Who on Jakku would even have something like that?

@Aginor this just feels more like Disney style band-aid writing. Covering up one flaw with another one. In any event, they don't mention or show it in the movies, so it still feels disjointed for the movie goer.




Here is a different and unrelated question. Who here would be surprised if the story of Rey's parents being nobodies falls through and she gets tied to some pre-existing popular bloodline (Skywalker, Kenobi, etc.)?

 

I would love her to be the daughter of a pair of nobodies myself because it would keep her as a mysterious vergence in the Force like Anakin was (in that he didn't have a father), or even Obi-Wan's granddaughter or something new, but knowing how much of a purist Abrams is he'll probably change it to her being Luke's daughter or similar

 

Star Wars is essentially a family space opera. Lucas has said as much.

Personally, in the case of Rey, I'd be fine with it going either way. She can be attached to an important lineage or to nobodies, it makes little difference to me. It's one of the things that doesn't bother me either way.

To a degree. But it is also well established that their is a major lineage component. Sort of like how Usain Bolt's children would stand a better chance at being able to run fast than any of our potential children.

That was not a mysterious convergence of the force, that was Plagueis.

 

The book it’s from is specifically supposed to be told in a way that makes him seem mythical. That, and that fact that it goes against Aftermath and has no mention on Wookieepedia, reinforces my belief that it’s an Imperial Gunner seeing the tractor beamed Ravager and panicking.

 

Luke disappearing from force projection is the sequel trilogy's version of Padme dying from sadness. Not as ridiculous, but having it happen to a much more integral and important character puts it on par.

 

It would be, but I think what actually happened is still pretty cool and deserves an on screen adaptation at some point.

I didn’t think so, but can we both agree that even if you don’t like the circumstances, the way it was done, with John Williams epic score and the sunset, was very fitting for his end?

 

Yes we can definitely agree on that. TLJ for all its faults, still looks visually stunning. The same can be said for the musical score.