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Medieval facts

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Aginor, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. pendrake
    Skink Priest

    pendrake Well-Known Member

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    Apologies in advance, but since this is supposed to be a thread about facts...


    All of this is bogus info:
    ...the worst offense is suggesting that Roman legionaries and zweihander swords shared the same century. Just no. :pompus: :bookworm:
     
  2. Padre
    Stegadon

    Padre Well-Known Member

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    To quote Michael Carpenter, "My faith is my armor. My kevlar-ceramic helps."
     
  3. pendrake
    Skink Priest

    pendrake Well-Known Member

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    Clearly @Torxhol Drakescale thinks it might be amusing to troll this thread...
     
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  4. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning Staff Member

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    I hate to be the party pooper, but swords like the one pictured didn't exist until a thousand years later.
    The romans were defeated, but not using such swords.

    good points!
    In fact if you were teleported there you would most likely not even know who is who. Judging everything we know the style of clothing and the equipment of Greek vs. Persian forces were mainly the same at that time.

    The movie is based on a comic, which is based on a bizarrely exaggerated propagabda story about the battle, written quite some time after the actual event.



    As for spears vs. swords:
    The spear (or pike) was the main weapon in most conflicts before the 17th century, in all parts of the world we know of.

    Swords were used for a long time, but most of the time swords actually were not primary weapons. Just because spears are so good.
     
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  5. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning Staff Member

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    I don't want to make that accusation to be honest.
    There is a LOT of misconceptions around about historical things.
    (I would also say that this is a very unlikely story though).
     
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  6. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    That's hilarious, though unless the inhabitants of that castle never lit a fire before seems like a made up story :p

    I assume you mean testudo? Or greeks instead of romans? The romans weren't really using phalanxes anymore by the time they went into Germany.

    Couldn't you make an argument that every 2-handed sword is technicly a zweihander? At least if you're speaking german?

    Didn't the persians bring relativly large forces of comperativly lightly armored troops, being largely a dessert kingdom and such? Whereas the greeks basicly only brought the much heavier armoured hoplite everywhere making the two armies relativly distinct?


    To be honest, I'd be curious what would be the biggest advantage of the spear. The extra range and such. Or the fact that's it just infinitly easier to teach a bunch of farmers to hold a line pointing a bunch of spears forward than it is to teach each of em to become capable swordsman who don't end up cutting their neighbour instead of their enemy.
     
  7. Torxhol Drakescale
    Saurus

    Torxhol Drakescale Active Member

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    Terribly sorry, my statement about the zweihanders being used against romans way have come from my own misrelation of facts and ideas, as well as certain time periods. I did believe the story about the castle, but as I cannot find any legitimate information on it now, I am inclined to suspect it as false. My apologies for not doing my due diligence on fact checking, it was not my intention to "troll" this thread, as you have put it. I am a good bit less familiar with medieval eras as I am with time periods after 1750, and for this I also apologize.
     
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  8. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning Staff Member

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    The Persian kingdom was not desert for the most part. So probably not.


    Range and ease of use are the main parts. They are also cheap and easy to manufacture.

    Edit: Skallagrim made a nice video about it once. He didn't have a lot of experience with the spear but he could relatively easily sparr against two of his HEMA club mates that were using swords at the same time.
     
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  9. Torxhol Drakescale
    Saurus

    Torxhol Drakescale Active Member

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    Yes. Glorious series.
     
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  10. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning Staff Member

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    Oh and btw something else that many people don't know:

    The uniform look that we see in many movie armies.... wasn't a thing for the most part of history, especially in the medieval period. People would bring whatever weapons and armor they could afford, and wear their normal clothes (nobles might wear certain colors but they might not).
     
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  11. LizardWizard
    OldBlood

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    For the sake of starting a friendship wrecking argument, I mean deep discussion, which shields are best?

    Answer: the Norman Kite Shield.

    The gauntlet is thrown!
     
  12. pendrake
    Skink Priest

    pendrake Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure about that last bit?

    It might have to do with the raw fact that one sword contains enough metal for three or four spear tips. For the same investment of resources: arm one guy with a sword? —or— arm four guys with spears?
     
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  13. LizardWizard
    OldBlood

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    The main reason pole weapons were the primary weapon through most of recorded history is because of reach. Reach is why the bow and arrow were prominent. Reach, speed, and protection were the trifecta of battlefield prominence. That is why heavy cavalry were the queens of the battlefield.
     
  14. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    well maybe calling it dessert is a bit of a stretch, but still it's largely warmer and more arid than where the greeks tended to hang out for the most part. Hence as far as I remember they generally preffered troops that were lighter armoured than the greek hoplite. Admittadly "lighter armoured than a greek hoplite" doesn't mean much as the hoplite was probably the unit with the heaviest armour of the era...
     
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  15. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning Staff Member

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    Based on people who practice HEMA:
    Yes.

    1on1 even a beginner spearman can fight a medium level swordsman or even two.
    That's what most of them say as far as I have heard.

    There's even a video when a few of them tried multiple swordsmen with and without shields against multiple supermen (EDIT: LOL autocorrect corrected spearman to supermen) with and without shields IIRC.
    Swords and shields worked a lot better against spears.

    But yeah the aspect you mentioned (material) surely plays into it as well. We are talking about war of course. In daily life people would not run around carrying pole arms. That's where swords shine.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  16. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning Staff Member

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    An interesting question.
    I would say: it depends on where, when, and what for.
    Imagine living in a 15th century medieval city. You are a civilian walking around carrying weapons for self defense. The people that you might fight against are robbers or so, armed with swords, clubs and the like.

    I'd choose a buckler and a one handed sword over a kite shield any day then.

    If you go to war against archers together with your buddies, then the combination of sword and a large shield might be a lot better.
    ....unless you are an archer yourself. Carrying a kite shield around probably won't do you any good. :D
     
  17. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning Staff Member

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    Here's a cool Spear vs. Sword video by Lindybeige:

    Noteworthy: All of those guys have a lot more experience with swords than with spears.



    EDIT: I also noticed that @LizardWizard posted that video on page 1 already....
     
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  18. LizardWizard
    OldBlood

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    Copy cat! ;)
     
  19. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning Staff Member

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    The evidence is (AFAIK) inconclusive about that.
    Remember that one of the very common things in all of history is: if someone does something and it works, everyone else starts doing it as well.
    You adjust for whom you fight and where you fight. The Persian areas adjacent to Greece were likely quite similar to them.
    It is true though that persians from the other side of the kingdom (which was huge at that time) most likely looked a bit different. But so would Greek soldiers from other parts of their territories (which weren't small either).

    Also keep in mind that countries like we know didn't exist for most parts of history. Some areas of then Persia had been "Greece" not that long before that. Same goes vice versa, quite often with shifting loyalties.
    When they didn't fight each other they were trading, and cultures did mix where they met.
    Pretty much the same in medieval times all over the world, and also for people who traded with Romans in their age.
    I went to an Iron age museum in Denmark and back then I was surprised to see that during that time the Roman style of clothing and jewelry was pretty popular there, despite being over 1000km away from the closest roman settlement. Archaeologists even found a lot of Roman coins there.
     
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  20. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning Staff Member

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    Also an interesting video, this time by Skallagrim (also a HEMA guy and IIRC he studied a few semesters of either history or archaeology. He is a quite knowledgable dude)
     
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