Haven't played 8th in about a year, since 40k has really taken hold in my game group (as has Fantasy Flight's 40k Conquest LCG...so, so good.). But, a local club is holding a 2500 point 2-day tournament in November, and I thought it would give me a great incentive to get back into 8th and to finish painting my lizardmen. This is a variation on a skink cloud, that focuses on deploying forward, and slowly walking backwards while my support units and skinks soften up enemy targets, before my combat units charge in towards the end of the game to clean up. In our local meta (WoC, Dark Elves, High Elves, Lizzies, Beastmen, Dwarfs, Gobbos, Ogres) this list has done well, but I'm looking for any pointers that would help it in a more competitive meta. Lords Slann - BSB, Standard of Discipline, Focus of Mystery, Becalming Cogitation, Harmonic Convergence, Channeling Staff Heroes Scar vet - cold one, great weapon, shield, dragonhelm, dawnstone Scar vet - cold one, great weapon, shield, stegadon helm, dragonbane gem Skink Priest - heavens, lvl 1, cube Skink Priest - heavens, lvl 1, scroll Core 24 Saurus - full command, spears (this tournament is ruling that Predatory Fighter affects all ranks, not just first) 10 skirmishers - javs/shields 10 skirmishers - javs/shields 10 skirmishers - javs/shields 10 skirmishers - javs/shields 10 skirmishers - javs/shields Special 5 Chamos 5 Chamos 22 Temple Guard - full command Rare Ancient Steg Ancient Steg My main conerns are - too few temple guard (would like to get the unit to 26 so it can go 6x5 with the slann), finding points for soul of stone (just read the statistical analysis on the tactics forum...totally changed my mind as to its worth!), and finding points for giving the stegs Sharpened Horns to help deal with skull crushers, ogres, etc. If I drop the chamos, that gives me enough points for all of it - but I like having the dual layer of war machine hunters; chamos in the rear, cowboys in the front (if I need them), and ice shard on the skink priests to boot. Am I too paranoid about war machines?
You're right to be paranoid about warmachines as they have plenty of targets that are viable to shoot at (however target saturation is good). They will hurt your Stegadons and cowboys especially if they have no wardsave. Personally I wouldnt run a Saurus Warrior unit under 30 models, and mine still perform pretty bad on tournaments (I take them because I like the models and mine are properly painted). They can serve as a bit of a hideout for shooting, but the cowboys dont get a LoS against the really painful things. If you are expecting to run into alot of warmachines then I would definitely get a ward save or a charmed shield on at least one of the cowboys. Then I would either add more numbers to the Saurus Warriors or drop them for moar Skinks. Maybe get a couple of banners for objectives and stuff.
Yeah the mission pack is just standard missions, although 3 of the 5 missions rely on Fortitude from banners and the general, and this list only has 5 Fortitude which I feel is low at 2500 points. But, with 4 of it in my slann/TG unit, I feel its a blessing and a curse...the enemy will have to remove that unit or make it flee in order to get rid of that fortitude which will be tough, but if my slann miscasts I might do it for him. Would boosting the Saurus to 30 and dropping one of the skink units be viable still? I feel like the 5 drops, and all the shenanigans the skinks can do has been so key to my victories within my play group, I would be hesitant to reduce their ability to support the rest of the army... As for the cowboys, I could easily swap out their current gear for Talisman of Pres/LA/charmed shield and Armor of Destiny/shield to help mitigate cannon damage.
I think that dropping some Skink Skirmishers for Saurus Warriors could help. You still have 2x 5 Chameleon Skinks to redirect with. When I play a list that is vulnerable to warmachines I tend to go for 1 unit of 5-6 Chameleon skinks, 2x 3 Terradons and a LvL 1-2 Heavens mage. That way I have something to try and counter the warmachines in every phase. Magic them, Shoot them and Charge them in turn 2. You could drop one of the LvL 1s to free up points aswell. You'll need plenty of dice for the Slann anyways. And having all that fortitude in one unit is a risk especially if the TG unit is only 22 strong. Its very easy to lose a bbunch of TG to a bad miscast. I believe you hit a minimum of 12 TG with either a Str 10 or Str 6 Miscast that wound on a 2+. You could move the Slann out of the unit but that is very dangerous aswell. Some people put the Slann in a Skirmisher unit and keep moving him around. Then moving him into the TG when CC is near. Doesn't work very well against flying monsters though so be careful with that
I would recommend turning your 5 x 10 Skink Skirmishers into 4 x 13 Skink Skirmishers. That means a unit needs to lose four Skinks in their first ranged attack hit to trigger a panic test rather than three which makes a difference. Also do you have room for five redirectors? As the italics suggest, I am skeptical. I'm not a big fan of your Scar Veteran equipment load outs. I'd drop the shields and dole out magic heavy armor. It gives you the same shooting AS and a slightly better AS against melee. Also, the better magic armors come with Ward Saves. Recommend Armor of Destiny and Armor Fortune if you want to go all out (give the latter one the Dragonbane Gem or the Luckstone). Armor of Fortune and Gambler's Armor if you want to save points. In my opinion, he Stegadon Helm is not worth it when not given to an Oldblood with the Piranha Blade. If you need a few more Temple Guard (or beefier Ancient Steggies) I'd drop the Chameleon Skinks or at least one of them. I've only seen novice players leave their artillery open to Chamo Skinks.
Its been so long since I've played 8th in a competitive sense, that I honestly don't know what I'm likely to face - but I would imagine that the chamo skinks are going to have a tough time doing their job, assuming my opponents are at least semi-capable, so I'm happy to lose one or both units if it means the rest of the list will perform better. I agree with the cowboys - I'm used to using skink chiefs on terradons to do my war machine hunting, so using the cowboys (and what to equip them with) is a bit new to me. I used to give the skinks dragonhelm/bane gem and charmed/enchanted shields with spears, plus light armor, to get them to 1+ and a 2+ vs lore of metal/flaming attacks. What are some good "standard" builds for cowboys? I think combining the 5x10 units into 4x10 untis or even 4x13 as you suggested makes sense, if for no other reason than to give my redirectors an overall smaller footprint, so I don't get in my own way during deployment/charges.
Lists for the tourney were due yesterday, so here's the final list I came up with after some fiddling around. It feels like its going to be a decent list, focusing on the strengths of the lizardmen army (magic, combat blocks, and redirector spam). C&C continues to be welcome, because although this is locked in as the list for the tournament next month I'm always happy to see where I can improve the list for other games! Slann - lvl 4, BSB, banner of discipline, channeling staff, becalming cogitation, focus of mystery, harmonic convergence, soul of stone Scar Vet - cold one, light armor, great weapon, charmed shield, talisman of preservation Scar Vet - cold one, armor of destiny, great weapon, shield Skink Priest - lvl 1, heavens, dispell scroll, ironcurse icon Skink Priest - lvl 1, heavens, cube of darkness 30 Saurus - full command, spears 10 skirmishers - jav/shield 10 skirmishers - jav/shield 10 skirmishers - jav/shield 10 skirmishers - jav/shield 5 chamo skinks 5 chamo skinks 26 temple guard - full command 3 terradon riders - javs ancient steg - sharpened horns, giant blowpipes So basically, I redid the gear on the cowboys to give them ward saves (both have a 1+ or 0+ save, and a 4+ ward) which I think will make them more survivable than just the rerolling 1+ save I had before. Charmed shield on one of them means he can be aggressive towards war machines and eat a cannon ball without worrying too much. One of the skink priests has the ironcurse icon, simply because I had 5 odd points to throw around and figure hey, if the enemy has a bunch of war machines, I can just attach him to my saurus or TG unit to give them a quick 6++, which if even a single model saves a wound with it will have paid for itself. Got rid of one of the ancient stegs simply because, while I love the models and they are pretty decent against the right target, it was a lot of points sitting in a single model, and removing it let me bump up the saurus and TG blocks to survivable numbers and still bring the chamo skinks and add a unit of terradon riders to aid in chaff/warmachine hunting. I still only have 5 fortitude, and 4 of it is locked into the TG/slann unit (if I deploy the slann with them), but I think overall the army will play better this way and create a lot of targets in my opponents face early on (chamos, cowboys, terradons) that he'll have to prioritize.