8th Ed. A few rules questions

[themuffinman873]

1) If your mount (like a carno) is slain by an ASL attack, such as a GW (non-elf), and your OB drops down to his feet as infantry, can he then be stomped in that same round of combat?

2) Do handlers for sallies have any impact in CC or ranged combat at all, or are they really just fancy wound counters (if your handlers are targeted during wound distribution). This, BTW amazes even some of the most veteran players (that you distribute wounds, not hits to the skinks).

3) If you lose your last handler, and the monster makes a reaction to "fight on as usual", can you still use the spout flames? Or has he then become just a CC fighter. If he stands his ground can he still spout flames?

4) In my TG bunker, during a move or march, can I move the slann to either side of a 5 wide unit (in the second rank of course) to protect the flank without making any sort of "reform" action?

5) If you assault a building and drive the foes out, can you just make a winners reform and reform your unit right where it was? (This is a problem because if you rotate 90 degrees from the center then your unit will be partially within a building). Or do you simply have to take over the building thus killing an entire turn of movement/potential charges.

I am going to be playing my first tourny in July, any abstract or commonly screwed up rules that you can think of? I already read through the "Did you know", lots of gold in that thread.

 

[n810]

1) If your mount (like a carno) is slain by an ASL attack, such as a GW (non-elf), and your OB drops down to his feet as infantry, can he then be stomped in that same round of combat?
not sure


2) Do handlers for sallies have any impact in CC or ranged combat at all, or are they really just fancy wound counters (if your handlers are targeted during wound distribution). This, BTW amazes even some of the most veteran players (that you distribute wounds, not hits to the skinks).
handlers only have hand weapons, and they may attack anything in contact with the salamanders. you are right on the second bit

3) If you lose your last handler, and the monster makes a reaction to "fight on as usual", can you still use the spout flames? Or has he then become just a CC fighter. If he stands his ground can he still spout flames?
yep can still move shoot and fight; stand your ground you can fight or shoot

4) In my TG bunker, during a move or march, can I move the slann to either side of a 5 wide unit (in the second rank of course) to protect the flank without making any sort of "reform" action?
not sure but, i think the slann my not exceed his normal movement distance

5) If you assault a building and drive the foes out, can you just make a winners reform and reform your unit right where it was? (This is a problem because if you rotate 90 degrees from the center then your unit will be partially within a building). Or do you simply have to take over the building thus killing an entire turn of movement/potential charges.
i think you may take their place in the building ?

I am going to be playing my first tourny in July, any abstract or commonly screwed up rules that you can think of? I already read through the "Did you know", lots of gold in that thread.

 

[NexS1]

1) If your mount (like a carno) is slain by an ASL attack, such as a GW (non-elf), and your OB drops down to his feet as infantry, can he then be stomped in that same round of combat?
No, because the attacks are simultaneous, and the rolls to wounds are done after the attacks. The mounted character falls after attacks are made.

2) Do handlers for sallies have any impact in CC or ranged combat at all, or are they really just fancy wound counters (if your handlers are targeted during wound distribution). This, BTW amazes even some of the most veteran players (that you distribute wounds, not hits to the skinks).
N810 has answered this one

3) If you lose your last handler, and the monster makes a reaction to "fight on as usual", can you still use the spout flames? Or has he then become just a CC fighter. If he stands his ground can he still spout flames?
N810 has answered this one

4) In my TG bunker, during a move or march, can I move the slann to either side of a 5 wide unit (in the second rank of course) to protect the flank without making any sort of "reform" action?
A reform is a reform. If you want to move the slann you have to reform

5) If you assault a building and drive the foes out, can you just make a winners reform and reform your unit right where it was? (This is a problem because if you rotate 90 degrees from the center then your unit will be partially within a building). Or do you simply have to take over the building thus killing an entire turn of movement/potential charges.
If you win combat vs an enemy unit in a building and it fails its steadfast break test then they are forced out, opposite to your unit. You then DECIDE if you want to occupy the building. If not, you move 1" back. It seems that you don't get a reform (Rules as Written)

I am going to be playing my first tourny in July, any abstract or commonly screwed up rules that you can think of? I already read through the "Did you know", lots of gold in that thread.
One thing that cannon users seem to conveniently forget is that the cannon must be able to draw an un-obscured line of sight to the cannonball's first bounce point. I've come across people who like to shoot over units (friends and foes). Keep an eye out for that.

 

[themuffinman873]

Thank you both for the responses. I have seen this debate before about "unobstructed LOS" for cannon shots. The grey water comes in when you are shooting between the legs of some sort of rank and file, or shooting under the canopy of a set of forest trees.
On that same note, I heard before that buildings are treated as being endlessly tall, however our carnosaur model is all kinds of tall/wide. If its head is peaking out over the roof do we imagine that the building is still blocking LOS? If his tail is poking out from the side, can they hit the model with something like a bolt thrower? Or do all war machines require you to target a base?
Finally, if there is a hill between you and a cannon, he cannot technically see the land in front of your base, but that almost seems cheesy to not allow an otherwise unimpeded shot. How does that ruling go?

Sorry for the cannon ignorance, I hardly ever play against them.

 

[NexS1]

Thank you both for the responses. I have seen this debate before about "unobstructed LOS" for cannon shots. The grey water comes in when you are shooting between the legs of some sort of rank and file, or shooting under the canopy of a set of forest trees.

In the BRB it says that forests don't block line of sight. Sometimes house rules are created to cover things like this. I've played a tournament where hills were infinitely tall.

On that same note, I heard before that buildings are treated as being endlessly tall, however our carnosaur model is all kinds of tall/wide. If its head is peaking out over the roof do we imagine that the building is still blocking LOS? If his tail is poking out from the side, can they hit the model with something like a bolt thrower? Or do all war machines require you to target a base?

Again, the BRB states that wings, weapons, tails don't count toward line of sight.

Finally, if there is a hill between you and a cannon, he cannot technically see the land in front of your base, but that almost seems cheesy to not allow an otherwise unimpeded shot. How does that ruling go?

Sorry for the cannon ignorance, I hardly ever play against them.

If it were me, i'd pull the book out and point out where it says the cannon must draw a unobscured line of sight to the point on the ground it wishes to target. But the cannon can target your canosaur if it wishes(as it can most likely draw line of sight to it due to the size of the monster). In friendly games it's not so bad, but cannons are too undercosted and they can wreck a huge chunk of LM army with one relatively easy shot that I couldn't let it slide in a tournament.
In the case you've specified above, the cannon could target the top of the hill, or the front of the carnosaur (if he can see it).

edit:
remember that the cannonball overshoots. so if there's 10" of "no line of sight" after the hill, then the cannon will either have to shoot the monster and hope for a low artillery die roll (to land on his base), or aim at the top of the hill and hope for high artillery roll and bounce distance rolls.

 

[owain_b]

I agree with NexS1 cannons are way too accurate and undercosted, it is not cheesy at all to follow the rules to the letter when it comes to cannons. Be as picky as you can with what the cannon can target it's the only way to keep our monsters alive, use the scenery to your advantage the cannon would have to target the top of the hill as targeting the carnosaur will almost always over shoot, so make sure there is a good gap between the hill and the carnosaur and you should be good

 

[themuffinman873]

I could almost imagine that for a dwarf player who deploys a cannon on the edge of the map on "open terrain" will have a hard time even seeing the top of a 1" hill. I mean really the plateau of the hill only has to be above the dwarf's eyes to impede LOS to the bounce location, which is pretty darn low.
Regardless, thank you for the tips, hopefully I don't have to nit'pick anyone, unless they bring a full battery of WMs.

 

[owain_b]

I would highly recommend using a laser pointer for seeing where cannons can aim. Aim from the barrel of the gun and it is easy to see what the cannon can see with no arguements. It sounds a bit nit picky but it actually speeds the shooting phase up as you are able to see what the cannon can see instantly and no discussion ensues

 

[SilverFaith]

In the BRB it says that forests don't block line of sight. Sometimes house rules are created to cover things like this. I've played a tournament where hills were infinitely tall.

This is also pretty absurd, and makes GW writers appear like the usual basement dweller stereotype people love to make fun of - If you think a forest is just "soft cover" and cannot block line of sight, you have never seen a forest in real life. Even the small patches of trees of only about 50 meters WILL block any and all kinds of vision, especially during the summer when the trees are blooming. Worse still, soft cover? Are you kidding me? There is like a hundred things between you and your target that you could potentially hit, even if that target is a mere 20 meters away from you.

My group is pretty on-and-off about houseruling it. I think it should block LoS, as does half my local playerbase - but the other half thinks otherwise, which means we usually end up just using the base rules.

 

[NexS1]

That's fair enough. But i was once told something like "each model on the table represents approximately 50 soldiers on the real battle field".
If that's a true statement, then look at the size of units you field and how they are almost always larger that the footprint of the "forest".

While I agree that a forest is in real life, dense and certainly blocks line of sight from one edge to the other, it would be far too complicated of a system to accurately represent it.
Take, for example, a unit inside a building. You can still shoot at it with bows, but receive hard cover from it. In real life, you couldn't shoot a house with a bow and hit the occupants. BUT, if you had a cannon you definitely could. What about handguns? They have a chance of getting into a house, right?
Fantasy is complicated enough, in my opinion any more complication would ruin a good thing.

At the end of the day, it's easier to shoot through a forest than through a brick and mortar building. I like to think of it as "I know they're there, so I'll point and guess" haha

 

[MasterKrox]

1) If your mount (like a carno) is slain by an ASL attack, such as a GW (non-elf), and your OB drops down to his feet as infantry, can he then be stomped in that same round of combat?
No, because the attacks are simultaneous, and the rolls to wounds are done after the attacks. The mounted character falls after attacks are made.

2) Do handlers for sallies have any impact in CC or ranged combat at all, or are they really just fancy wound counters (if your handlers are targeted during wound distribution). This, BTW amazes even some of the most veteran players (that you distribute wounds, not hits to the skinks).
N810 has answered this one

3) If you lose your last handler, and the monster makes a reaction to "fight on as usual", can you still use the spout flames? Or has he then become just a CC fighter. If he stands his ground can he still spout flames?
N810 has answered this one

4) In my TG bunker, during a move or march, can I move the slann to either side of a 5 wide unit (in the second rank of course) to protect the flank without making any sort of "reform" action?
A reform is a reform. If you want to move the slann you have to reform

5) If you assault a building and drive the foes out, can you just make a winners reform and reform your unit right where it was? (This is a problem because if you rotate 90 degrees from the center then your unit will be partially within a building). Or do you simply have to take over the building thus killing an entire turn of movement/potential charges.
If you win combat vs an enemy unit in a building and it fails its steadfast break test then they are forced out, opposite to your unit. You then DECIDE if you want to occupy the building. If not, you move 1" back. It seems that you don't get a reform (Rules as Written)

I am going to be playing my first tourny in July, any abstract or commonly screwed up rules that you can think of? I already read through the "Did you know", lots of gold in that thread.
One thing that cannon users seem to conveniently forget is that the cannon must be able to draw an un-obscured line of sight to the cannonball's first bounce point. I've come across people who like to shoot over units (friends and foes). Keep an eye out for that.

If you move your unit you can freely move the characters in the unit without reforming thats in the brb

 

[MasterKrox]

Which tournament are you going to...because if its a gt in the usa the it probably falls under the us masters faq in which cannons only need to dee the model not the first bounce point.