1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Tutorial Arcane Vassals

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by Ixt, Mar 15, 2016.

  1. Ixt
    Troglodon

    Ixt Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    604
    Likes Received:
    353
    Trophy Points:
    63
    It's recently been posited that enemy wizards do not measure to our Arcane Vassals when determining whether they may unbind cast spells, and I'm inclined to agree that the rules support this position. If you disagree, please post in the thread on the rules forum rather than here. If it turns out that you're right, then this is all moot and it can fade to the backpages!

    Now, all of these Arcane Vassals can find a good spot just about anywhere on the field. Stick them with just about any unit that needs spell support, and you'll do just fine. I'm gonna focus on tactics that propel the Arcane Vassal in a more active, more aggressive role that goes beyond the normal "sit between a bunch of units and provide spell support."

    A few of our options aren't very effective in a role that centers on simply being a vassal/forming a unit around that role. I've featured them in a 'summoned' spot (often summoned through another vassal), but I'm open to new ideas!

    Let's start with a list:

    Tehenhauin, Prophet of Sotek (Skink Prophet),
    Tetto'Eko (Starseer),
    Oxyotl (Stalker),
    Skink Chief,
    Skink Priest,
    Skink Starpriest,
    Engine of the Gods,
    Troglodon.

    For all intents and purposes, the Troglodon seems to be our best Arcane Vassal in battles over 125 wounds or 150 wounds. It's a choice that isn't quite as list-dependent as others, and the Troglodon makes a fantastic escort for our 8"+-move options. There's nothing flashy here, but the Trog is a pretty well-rounded monster as far as monsters go; lots of wounds, a gradual damage table, high bravery, okay attacks, and a nice charge bonus. Couple all of that with the ability to unbind a spell, and it becomes a modest toolkit. With fielded mobility offering support (and possible magical assistance later), it's pretty good at seizing area in the early game.

    Consider utilizing the Troglodon with forces that have some number to them (rather than another monster, unless you intend to make an entire wound-heavy 'pack' of monsters). I've already recommended Salamanders in another thread, of course. I've posted that information in the following spoiler.

    I've had some success running 4 Salamanders (minimum 4 or 2 groups of 2, no skink handlers) as a kind of 'heavy supporting-fire group' that accompanies infantry. I have also enjoyed running them downfield with a Troglodon and some skink handlers to grab up land early/make a path for slower units. As a general note, I have not had good fortune running Salamanders/handlers unsupported (except during the late game, and only if they are healthy). Some stuff in our warscrolls can do that (Razordons, yum - bye Chaff!), but Sals don't seem to do it especially well.

    In my melee-heavy/infantry-heavy armies, they are automatically included and accompany blocks' flanks as a kind of delivery mechanism. This manner of usage compliments both their short-range shooting attack & relatively fragile profile, keeping them mostly unharmed for later turns. Their 'many-hats' design makes them extremely effective in the late-game if they are kept healthy; in my experience, their versatility has allowed them to pursue weakened units/lone heroes or monsters (in any manner of your choosing) with great results.

    For this reason, I do not use them as chaff (we have much better options, like Terradons). In addition, it's a role that will save you the extra wounds that would have been spent on Skink Handlers, which aren't really necessary in this type of build; the extra range isn't needed, because melee is gonna be coming at your infantry blocks regardless. Maybe it's counter-intuitive, but I prefer Sals over Razordons in this capacity, which is really weird for me to be saying because I always preferred Razors over Sals in 8th. o_o Woah. Weird. I am not used to saying that at all.

    The damage caused by their 'Stream of Fire/It Burns' effect is much more substantial against units that would have already been taking Battleshock tests (rather than being limited to the shooting phase, where it's just kinda meh), so it's important that the foe has some susceptibility to Battleshock. If the enemy-in-range is a monster, well, that monster's probably in for trouble regardless and your opponent has made a costly mistake.

    Anyway, in the shooting phase, 3 attacks will likely hit, with 2 likely wounding, and at a -2 Rend, you could very well be seeing 2 failed saves (opening the door to 2D6 damage). That's an alright bit of damage (not a phenomenal average at all coming from a soft 12-wound unit), but the real beauty for me has been the lasting effect via 'It Burns!' mortal wounds. The 4+ is the barrier here, but it's not an especially bad one. If nothing else, it reminds me why I field them as support. =P

    Testing for 2D3 mortal wounds prior to combat is not only stressful, but it wreaks hell on a monster's damage table/unit's Battleshock test, potentially turning a won round into a lost one (especially when compounded with wounds from shooting & combat). On top of that, scoring 3D3 'It Burns!' with 4 Salamanders ain't exactly unrealistic.

    More frustrating is that your opponent either can't shoot at them due to having melee-only units/no LOS, or it'll probably be pointless to shoot at them/charge them instead of their accompanying infantry block.

    Low 'It Burns!' rolls will see you negating a unit size bonus to a large squad's Battleshock (not bad) or killing off some models from smaller multi-wound-model units (pretty good). Decent rolls, however, will put a massive strain on your opponent's strategy - Salamanders are devastating against beat-up units. They have such a withering (corrosive? ;)) effect that one good combat with their added support will likely enable your large block to withdraw from combat and look further downfield, while they rip up the remaining fodder.

    To wrap up, I've typically fielded this 'squadron' between infantry blocks, usually our less impressive ones (skinks/saurus) or damaged ones. Whether that's toward the center of the field depends on the battle type, but they'll find a nice home toward the center of your forces (or, if you choose to stack heavy to one side, slightly behind the front line of & far beside the leading force).

    Most battles, my 4 Sals have bounced from damaged unit to damaged unit, effectively extending my infantry's longevity at times when they would have been wiped out by the enemy (or reduced beyond useability).

    If you anticipate taking both Salamanders and a monster, then consider utilizing that monster with them. If you like the thought of a monster tandem, they actually synergize pretty well with the Troglodon. You may need Skink Handlers to aid them in this capacity, but a Troglodon will let you shift your Salamanders away from the infantry that keeps them safe, and it alters their army role from combat support to a much more engaged, downfield utility. You could probably run 3 if you plan to do it this way, but I prefer starting the game with 4.

    Don't get me wrong: this isn't a super-offensive combination, but it's one that vanilla units/slow units/elite melee units will have a pretty hard time approaching if you can seize some open field. Played aggressively, your opponent is going to have to consider whether the part of the board that your monsters are occupying is worth the effort/resources/change in strategy required to evict them. I don't know the term for it, but they threaten space very effectively. It's going to buy you some time, and it'll give you substantial room to breathe/advance.

    They further compound one another's 'support fire' role since the Troglodon subtracts an additional point from Bravery, its Oracle unbinds the spells that your opponent should definitely be throwing at the Salamanders, it possesses the early-game mobility/range to actually keep up with the Salamanders and grab land early (as I mentioned previously), its ranged attack will make chaff/cav think twice about getting too close (charge bonus from spit is pretty nuts here), plus, it's an Arcane Vassal. Added protection/utility for a potential Slann. Now we're seeing a crapton of utility & synergy happening here. Mystic Shield for 4+ Sals, anyone? Maybe summon some more troops downfield? Summon an Astrolith Bearer, perhaps? Nifty!

    If I had to assign two units to a tandem (which is usually a good idea when composing an army, and then making tandems into tandems, etc.), these two make a pretty good one. Skinks can be thrown into the mix if you have nowhere else to put them, but these fellas have almost never needed a screen for me.

    TLDR: Alone, 4 Salamanders are just a nice heavy-fire (or, 'heavy-acid,' rather :cool:) early-game support tandem, and it allows them to easily shift into a chaffy/clawy late-game role. Kept healthy, they're a cool option that evolves as the game progresses. If your opponent gets comfortable seeing them near blocks, it'll very likely lead you into some highly advantageous spots after turn 3.

    Fielded with a Troglodon/handlers, their role CAN change entirely to blitz land and threaten space, but it also works just fine in that reserved capacity w/ infantry (allowing you to hold onto them for later).

    I hope that these opinions are helpful. :D:D:woot:

    Hm.. I feel like I didn't give my beloved Razordons enough credit in this thread. Maybe I'll do another write-up for them. They're great with a Troglodon as well, but they have other strengths in a different format.

    Based on my experiences, the Troglodon's biggest problem is that it cannot hold its own against units/models specialized for close combat: therefore, Kroxigor, Salamanders & our Razordons also make great buddies. Like everything in the Seraphon army, they'll appreciate some magic assistance from a Slann. Additionally, the 'Thunderquake Starhost' can very easily become active if you're going to field these tandems, and it is an *extremely* powerful battalion choice.

    The Kroxigor's ability, 'Energy Transference,' for example, becomes active if they are within 3" of a Troglodon, allowing them to reroll wound rolls of 1 against enemy models/units - an enemy that is also losing 1 point to Bravery. Stack the Troglodon & Kroxigor combo with Mystic Shield on the Krox, and this tandem becomes one that will devastate many lone models/small multi-wound units. You'll get much more mileage out of the Moon Hammer's 'Sweeping Blows,' and 'Jaws like a Steel Trap' will become slightly more relevant (for what it's worth).

    The Kroxigor, too, subtract from the Troglodon's close combat profile - a profile that can't much hold its own in a melee. Feel like you'll need more defense? Summon a Skink Prophet to reroll saves. Need more offense? A summoned Astrolith Bearer will help the army altogether. Go nuts with the summoned support for these guys: you can tailor it to your opponent with ease, and they probably can't unbind it. As far as Arcane Bolt is concerned, I'll take a virtually un-unbindable D3 mortal wounds in the hero phase any day of the week, especially if it keeps my own multi-wound models safer and I'm backing that up with D3 Noxious Spittles in shooting. Both of those might be enough to make my opponent reconsider moving closer!

    Despite the fact that this takes a good deal of committment in a wound-limited list (3 Kroxigor & 1 Troglodon come in at 24 wounds), it still functions well as either an anvil or a hammer: a heavy-hitting unit backed up with some range and additional spellpower. Though they *can* be, they don't *need* to be played particularly aggressively if you know that they'll be getting charged.

    On the other hand, Razordons ought to be played aggressively due to the meager 12" range of their shots. They also work pretty well, but they're something of a gamble without either the 'insights' granted by some of our casters (which may be better off spent elsewhere) and the rerolls granted by skink handlers (which cost extra wounds). Don't jump to conclusions just yet, however!

    What they lack in melee they make up for in voluminous ranged attacks and an okay anti-charge ability, 'Instinctive Defense.' If you field 4 Razordons & 1 Troglodon (24 wounds again), summoning a Starseer to accompany them will transform their volatility into something much more consistent. Both 'Cosmic Herald' (which grants insights) and 'Curse of Fates' (make that 4+ anti-charge into a 3+) reduce the unpredictability of their ranged attack and 'Instictive Defense.' Their saves make them fairly formidable; not as offensive as Salamanders, because they make up for it in defense. Picking the right unit to chase down with these guys is key!

    This is a 'unit' that can fill quite a few roles, none of them so simple as 'hammer' or 'anvil.' I'd call it 'chaff,' but it feels more damaging than that (and expensive, to be fair). They wreak havoc on infantry units.

    I haven't mentioned it before, but... skinks. Skinks always seem to be a good decision. :p

    I'll edit these posts later and touch them up with snazzy graphics and bolded font. For now, I'm focusing on producing tactics. Next up, the Stalker! How about a Vassal that channels three spells from the Slann, and then immediately disappears for the remainder of the turn? Pretty incredible offensive option: the invisible Vassal!
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
    Webb8, Wazz, Bracnos and 1 other person like this.
  2. Bowser
    Slann

    Bowser Third Spawning

    Messages:
    5,581
    Likes Received:
    8,452
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I hadn't thought of putting Oxyotl in as the vassal. Although, I never realized until that other thread that it was any skink hero! Definitely going to change up some of my tactics.
     
    Ixt likes this.
  3. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,344
    Likes Received:
    14,490
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I've got a question regarding the skink oracle riding the trog.

    If your using him as a vassal and attempt a unbind with the slann, can he also unbind with his own cast, so 2 attempts per hero phase?
     
  4. Phoedinn
    Razordon

    Phoedinn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    332
    Likes Received:
    576
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I believe the rule is that you can't unbind via vassal, sadly. So you would only get the trogs one unbind attempt (unless the slann is in range anyway, of course)
     
    Ixt and Crowsfoot like this.
  5. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,021
    Likes Received:
    33,048
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The idea got potential!
    The only things that can ruin your plan, is that Oxyotl must appear in your movement phase, so he risks to be targeted by your adversary, before your next hero phase.
     
    Ixt and Bowser like this.
  6. Ixt
    Troglodon

    Ixt Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    604
    Likes Received:
    353
    Trophy Points:
    63
    My internet's out, so I've got to post from my phone, unfortunately. This is a rough draft!

    The Stalker's a pretty cool option if you like a hit-and-run style rather than the "Battlw of the Bulge" sort of scenario that's wrought by the Troglodon.

    When deploying terrain, try to link some pieces roughly 13 to 14" apart, maybe even a little closer. This will allow you to summon the Stalker (and whatever summons he channels) directly into cover.

    As such, DO NOT DEPLOY THE STALKER! Those 4 wounds (in a wound-limit setting) can be spent elsewhere!

    With one Slann, summoning and Mystic Shielding in the early game is probably your best bet. With two Slann, double-Arcane Bolting a hard target isn't a bad idea at all! I'm focusing mostly on a one-Slann approach.

    In the hero phase, first have the Slann summon the Stalker into terrain, but not too close to the enemy. Counter the nearest enemy model to the Stalker with another summon.

    Is a monster or lone model threatening the area? Krox or Camo Skinks. Big, poorly-armored infantry block? Razors. Heavily-armored infantry or cav? Salamanders or Krox. Summoning a Bastiladon with the lazerrss into cover is always a good idea.

    These can be summoned into the same piece of terrain (wise if you intend to keep the Stalker in play) or one of those nearby pieces I've mentioned (good if you have flyers ready to ambush/camos in hiding/fast support nearby/you're exploiting a weakness in the enemy's line).

    The third spell cast depends on your gameplan. I'll get into that next.

    As an aside, I've had fun with Summon Stalker > channel-summon Astrolith Bearer nearby > plant standard > get rerolls to hit > channel-summon pewpewlazersBastiladon > blow stuff away in shooting phase.

    If you plan to remove the Stalker, consider buffing whatever unit you've summoned with Mystic Shield. Otherwuse, hitting an exposed target that's already nearby with an Arcane Bolt can be pretty stressful for your opponent, especially with some follow-up shots from your Arcane Vassal. Removing the Stalker isn't always necessary, of course.

    Speaking of which... because the Stalker is summoned in the hero phase and cannot move in the following movement phase, a close reading of the 'Master Predator' rule indicates that that ability activates automatically. It is 'set up,' but it's set up in the hero phase, not movement, it doesn't move, and thus it gets the rule! Sneaky, sneaky! ;)

    This circumvents the hindrance posed by deploying the model from hiding, allowing it to gain the ground it needs and become 100% effective in the first turn: unbuffed, an Arcane Vassal with a 3+ save, 6 16" attacks hitting on a 3+ and wounding on a 2+. That is pretty damn good, especially when backed up with summons.

    That's not bad at all for something that you can summon every turn with relative ease, and it creates a bubble that unbinding wizards won't want to get close to! The drawback, of course, is that it cannot unbind. If your opponent ran a gambit and deployed their wizard close to yours due to your lack of a vassal, they stand a fair chance of losing it in the first round or taking heavy wounds. Alternatively, it can get summoned, channel a bunch, and then disappear.

    Heck, imagine consistently summoning one per turn, channeling with it, removing it from the board, and then dropping all of them to fire against a single model in the late-game: yowza.

    I'll try to clean this post up in time. It's a pain doing it on a phone! Take care, y'all.

    giphy.gif
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
    Webb8 likes this.
  7. Ixt
    Troglodon

    Ixt Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    604
    Likes Received:
    353
    Trophy Points:
    63
    The Starpriest functions similarly to Oxyotl (the Stalker), but its impact is much different. In a way, our Starpriest bridges the tactical gap between the Troglodon on the Stalker.

    The following spoiler contains a brief overview of those two choices:

    The Stalker shows us a summonable unit that mostly features elements of positioning & surprise, though its profile also displays a small-but-noticeable capability as a decent assassin. To recap, the Stalker automatically activates its 'Master Predator' rule if it's summoned, and the nice save bonus if it's summoned into cover. With some tinkering, it should have no trouble putting out 4-6 wounds against whatever's in range, in addition to whatever damage comes from the spells that it channels. Because it can so easily bounce around the board, one approach is to drop 'bunkers' of summoned units (Astrolith + Bastiladon is very nice) into cover. Not bad.

    On the flipside, we have the Troglodon! Unlike the Stalker, a channeling strategy that involves a Troglodon practically requires that this particular option be deployed (rather than summoned). To draw another contrast, this approach has all the trickery of an eyeless white dinosaur sprinting through a dense jungle! In other words, 'none at all'! It's a choice that complements a beefy short-range shooting and/or melee list and, in my experience, it's worked very well in that environment. To get the most bang for your buck, it's gotta be played aggressively.

    For further detail, please check my previous posts!

    The Starpriest is another Arcane Vassal that may be better off summoned, but it could probably do well enough on foot if a particular unit requires early protection against shooting. The Slann could anchor one end of the line while the Starpriest holds down the other. That approach also removes the risk of your Slann failing the summoning attempt.

    It's similar on the tabletop to the Troglodon as far as a role goes, with the notable exceptions that 1) it ought to be significantly easier to hide and 2) that it will appear much less threatening to your opponent. In my opinion, this is the "Troglodon-for-smaller-games" warscroll, but it has a place in any game size.

    Considering its utility as an Arcane Vassal, you could play it like the Stalker (summon it into cover, follow-up with more summons, cast Starlight on a unit) or play it like the Troglodon (stick it with 8"+ move stuff that uses its jaws, and push forward). Defending an outmatched unit of beasts by summoning the Starpriest in their area could actually work out pretty well: level the staff at them, and protect them with Starlight. Pretty straightforward.

    As a reminder, I'm focusing less on what the Starpriest is capable of as a Vassal and instead expounding its capability as a general support utility.

    Does this sound familiar?

    It should.

    The Starpriest is to AoS as the Troglodon was to 8th (though substantially better)! ;) HUZZAH!!

    Now, the Serpent Staff.

    I just want to clear the air: this ability is cool, but it isn't going to be a regular gamechanger. Still, it is FANTASTIC coming from a unit that can not only cast & channel spells, but also unbind. Armies featuring Saurus, monsters, and/or beasts should appreciate this skink's presence.

    At first, I'd considered dedicating the Starpriest to a Carnosaur. Sadly, I don't see that playing out too well in absence of a strategy that's been developed solely for said Carnosaur. But then, dedicating an entire gameplan to a single model - and it is a nice model - might not even be the best idea due to the amount of fire that it'll draw just by virtue of being on the board. The Starpriest would basically be reduced to a Mystic Shield-wagon.

    Naturally, I'd considered our other beasties next - Razordons and Salamanders, specifically. Yet, I'm not exactly sold. I don't really want either of those two getting into close combat if I can help it. If they are charged, I'll certainly try to help them out with a Starpriest, but it's not a general strategy that I prefer.

    Surprisingly, I think that the Starpriest fits in best with our Saurus Cavalry, and second-best with our Infantry. Both of these options are well-suited when fielded as part of the 'Saurus Host' battalion, plus the new one that's recently been developed, the 'Sunclaw Starhost.' If you intend to field a ton of Cavalry, then go for the 'Firelance Starhost' in lieu of the extra bite. You'll probably get more mileage from the mortal wounds via lances.

    After rolling a bunch of dice with all of the other units, the Cavalry take the most advantage of the Serpent Staff ability in general. Their volume of jaw attacks, their well-rounded profile, and their many buff options optimize the Staff.

    Here are some quick numbers, coming from 5 Saurus Cavalry and a Starpriest (14 wounds altogether) on the charge:

    Starpriest grants Saurus Cavalry the Serpent's Staff buff.
    Saurus charge in, unbuffed aside from the Saurus Host's 'Predatory Fighters':
    <heyheyhey> rolls 5 dice, 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound...
    * 3 out of 5 dice hit (4+) = (4,4,4,3,3)
    * 3 out of 3 dice wound (3+) = (6,5,4)
    * Amounting to 3 wounds.
    <heyheyhey> rolls 10 dice, 5+ to hit, 4+ to wound...
    * 5 out of 10 dice hit (5+) = (6,5,5,5,5,4,4,3,2,1)
    * 2 out of 5 dice wound (4+) = (5,5,2,1,1)
    * Amounting to 2 wounds.
    <heyheyhey> rolls 10 dice, 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound...
    * 7 out of 10 dice hit (3+) = (5,4,4,4,4,3,3,2,2,1)
    * 4 out of 7 dice wound (4+) = (6,5,4,4,3,3,2)
    * Amounting to 4 wounds.

    1 mortal wound from Lances, 3 wounds to save.
    2 wounds from Saurus' Powerful Jaws to save.
    5 wounds from Cold One's Vicious Bite to save.
    1 automatic wound and 10 wounds to save, no rend.
    Possible D3 mortal wounds via Starpriest channeling Arcane Bolt.

    Again, the volume of attacks coming from cavalry (4 jaw attacks) versus infantry (2 jaw attacks) in the absence of command abilities (which affect both Saurus cavalry and Saurus infantry equally) indicates, to me, that our Saurus Cavalry are the most ideal unit with which to field the Starpriest.

    Buffing the 'to-hit' rolls with either re-rolls or hard modifiers and/or adopting command abilities that grant extra attacks, etc. introduces quite a bit of explosiveness to what has otherwise wound up as a one-trick tarpit, in my experience.

    For example, let's go hog-wild and buff our Saurus Cavalry with a modest-though-corresponding general and a BSB:

    Part of a 'Saurus Host' Battalion, the mounted Saurus get an additional Bite attack.
    An Oldblood on a Cold One, the general, targets his Cavalry unit with 'Savage Charge,' granting their mounts an additional Bite attack.
    A nearby Astrolith Bearer plants its standard, triggering 'Proud Defiance' and granting the Cavalry re-rolls for misses.
    5 Cavalry charge in and reach combat:

    <heyheyhey> rolls 5 dice, 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound, rerolling missed hits...
    * 3 out of 5 dice hit (4+) = (6,5,4,3,3)
    * Rerolling 2 dice: 2 out of 2 rerolled dice hit (4+) = (5,4)
    * 4 out of 5 dice wound (3+) = (6,4,3,3,2)
    * Amounting to 4 wounds.

    <heyheyhey> rolls 10 dice, 5+ to hit, 4+ to wound, rerolling missed hits...
    * 1 out of 10 dice hit (5+) = (6,4,3,3,2,2,1,1,1,1)
    * Rerolling 9 dice: 3 out of 9 rerolled dice hit (5+) = (6,5,5,4,3,3,3,2,1)
    * 1 out of 4 dice wound (4+) = (6,2,2,1)
    * Amounting to 1 wound.

    <heyheyhey> rolls 15 dice, 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, rerolling missed hits...
    * 9 out of 15 dice hit (3+) = (6,6,6,5,5,4,4,3,3,2,2,2,2,2,1)
    * Rerolling 6 dice: 4 out of 6 rerolled dice hit (3+) = (5,5,4,3,2,1)
    * 8 out of 13 dice wound (4+) = (6,6,5,4,4,4,4,4,3,3,2,2,1)
    * Amounting to 8 wounds.

    1 mortal wound from Lances, 3 wounds to save.
    2 wounds from riders' jaws to save.
    10 wounds from Cold Ones' jaws to save.
    1 automatic wound, 15 wounds to save.
    Possible D3 mortal wounds via Starpriest channeling Arcane Bolt.

    A quick aside: are these numbers reason enough to field an OB/CO as an army general? Well, it actually may be pretty wise to do that in a smaller game that features some cavalry. They're pretty good in this setup, after all! A 10-wound unit just put out 15 wounds. After Battleshock, your Cavalry may have just ripped a huge chunk out of an infantry block. In a larger game, the Carnosaur may be the better choice.

    In any case, expect the Starpriest's 'Serpent Staff' ability to have a respectable impact on your Cavalry -- and your infantry, to an extent. It seems that infantry would need to be in a large, wide combat to get the most out of it, by comparison.

    That just about covers it. Starlight & Mystic Shield are both wonderful, and they explain themselves just fine. Being able to reliably drop Mystic Shield (and having a decent chance at Starlight, too) on the Cavalry is the best thing that's happened to that unit. All in all, the Starpriest is a solid Arcane Vassal.

    Like I've said before, I hope to clean these posts up and add graphics/tutorials via VASSAL screenshots in time. I feel that the 3 mentioned thus far are our primary choices and maaaan is it a good time to be a Lizardmen player: very comprehensive vassals; a nice departure from 8th!
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2016
    Webb8, Phoedinn, Killer Angel and 2 others like this.
  8. Phoedinn
    Razordon

    Phoedinn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    332
    Likes Received:
    576
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Thanks for all these tutorials? What about the normal priest? Is he viable?
     
    Ixt likes this.
  9. Ixt
    Troglodon

    Ixt Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    604
    Likes Received:
    353
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Yep, absolutely! Although it can't unbind, the Skink Priest is a decent option. Its traditional role is one that's familiar to 8th edition.

    For what it's worth, I'd deploy a Priest w/ Cloak of Feathers in order to take advantage of its first-turn mobilty. I don't know that I particularly like the CoF enough to spend wounds on it in a wound-limited game, however. Since it flies and hides easily, it could be sweet in scenario games.

    Unless a gunline's facing you down, the buff from Priestly Trappings/Celestial Rites - specifically the save reroll - typically won't be necessary 'til the 2nd or 3rd turn, so that's an option that I'd summon into place prior to engagement. If low-rend shooting has you worried, taking the priest-on-foot for protection is a nice bit of security, but high-rend hurts its useability.

    Trappings are a pretty strong choice: a 16" diameter is respectable. Though I haven't fielded it much, I can imagine that an opponent would make a target of it (especially since it's so soft) if they were given an explanation of Celestial Rites.

    Summoning it introduces a brief, low risk of a failed summon, but it eliminates the risk of it being killed off early (and, consequentially, needing to be summoned again anyway).

    A summon-based tactic also allows the player to potentially negate an unbind by summoning it just outside of an enemy wizard's radius, which may be much simpler than moving to said location on foot.

    Though this approach does consume one of the Slann's spells, spending one of the three to gain a unit which allows others to reroll saves (or charges) is probably a good idea. Mystic Shield fits nicely with the Rites.

    The lack of an unbind seems to hurt it most, so it's probably best as a backup Arcane Vassal (unless, again, you have CoF chasing objectives).
     
    Webb8 likes this.
  10. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,021
    Likes Received:
    33,048
    Trophy Points:
    113
    A positive fact about the Priest is that at least, he's got a nice missile weapon: range 18", d3 bolts, 3+/3+, rend -1.
     
    Ixt likes this.
  11. Ixt
    Troglodon

    Ixt Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    604
    Likes Received:
    353
    Trophy Points:
    63
    We're moving into Age of Sigmar's fabled, 'Realm of Vanilla!'

    The Starseer is first up, and it's a pretty straightforward pick. It's not a bad idea to have this guy around just for the amount of board control that he can bring. Careful, though, because he can grant that same control to your opponent!

    The bluff game must be strong when using 'Cosmic Herald.' If you're taking a lot of 'roll 4+ to activate...' units, they could be used as a pretty effective bargaining chip. Don't be afraid to say stuff like, "A bunch of rerolls is gonna make those vice-like jaws a threat," or "hopefully I can get a lot of extra dropped rocks out of this..." or "high risk, high reward..!" etc. Curse your lack of re-rolls, clamor that you'd wished you'd picked a higher number for the Cosmic Herald ability, even if you know that that's completely bogus! Bluff, bluff, bluff!! It'll frazzle your opponent.

    Personally, I've used this ability to mostly try for two turns in a row (for me or my opponent, whichever is best for me), since 'any single dice before your next hero phase' also includes the die that determines battle rounds. It's also nice for heightening the threat of Battleshock. Switching up Constellations becomes a bit less threatening (1, yikes), too. With this ploy in mind, I actually take a very conservative stance in the early game and opt to place my die with either '1' or '2' showing face-up. Yep: 1 or 2.

    Boring? Yeah.

    Un-ambitious? Eh, sorry dad.

    Effective? You betcha.

    If your opponent rolls high, well... maybe they hadn't! ;) Tell them to re-roll. If they roll average and you roll low, well... maybe you hadn't! ;) Re-roll! I probably don't need to mention it, but if you roll a 4 or higher and still fail, then you ought to have them reroll first.

    Come the mid-game when combats are starting, I'll still keep it conservative. In fact, it's probably best to stay conservative the entire time unless your opponent knows the way you think. Again, bluff, bluff, bluff! My guess is that most people are going to place their die on the '4, 5, 6' spectrum as a means of being defensive, so hovering between 1 & 2 seems pretty safe for us, and you likely won't need many more than that. In their mind, they're getting 1 or 2 rerolls if they counter you, so they may as well play it safe and shoot high in the event that they can match your '5' or whatever. Staying low means less rerolls for you, sure, but it probably won't be gamebreaking for them if you've got to forfeit the ability.

    How about some priorities, from most important to least? A hint: army-wide stuff is the most important. Aside from that, pivotal combats w/ heroes are next up.

    1. Battle Round Roll
    2. Constellations
    3. Pivotal Opponent Rolls (their heroes' abilities, etc.)
    4. Combats with the General (yours or opponents')
    5. Combats with Heroes & Monsters
    6. Charge Rolls
    7. Pivotal Spells & Unbindings
    8. Rolling to see who buys the post-game beers
    9. The other stuff!

    I guess that I don't have much else to say here, regarding Cosmic Herald. Just bluff, and don't get cocky! Remember, you only get those die for a single round. Consider how many you need, and how many your opponent feels that they need. Most people will probably swing wild assuming that you will swing wild as well - at least, that's my guess. After a couple rounds of being conservative, pull a shocker and pick... a 3!! ;) :p

    Next up is 'Curse of Fates.' When I cast it on myself, it's 'Blessing of Fates,' and when I cast it on my opponent, they look at me with an expression of, 'Curse of...


    It might be my favorite spell in our entire battletome. Effectively a casting value of 3 and a 28" range with a BSB planted, this spell is *monstrous* for our heroes, and it synergizes extremely well with 'Cosmic Herald' if you don't plan on using those die in the meta-ish ways that I've already mentioned.

    Some quick ones that go beyond rerolling or altering hits/wounds/saves/d3 damage/casts:

    Carnosaurs' Pinned Down: Monsters can be a pain! Cosmic Herald and CoF will make getting two hits (remember, you only need HITS) that much easier, making those massive jaws incredibly destructive! Throw in a Serpent Staff from our beloved Starpriest and woooaaaahhh goodbye Stonehorn!

    Carnosaurs' Bloodroar: Roll-off with opponent, have a Cosmic Herald die ready to re-roll their die, and then Curse of Fates on your Carnosaur to increase your roll by one. If you beat their roll without CoF being used, then up your 'D3 models flee' results to make at least 2 flee. Hey, why not? When fighting multi-wound models, this could be huge.

    Scar Vet on Cold One's Fury of the Seraphon: If it's a small game, well, hey, why not? Additional attacks are always a good idea.

    Chakax's Selfless Protector: Congrats, this is now automatic with Curse of Fates!

    Gor-Rok's Ferocious Rage: Now with more Ferocity! Just add Curse!

    Salamanders' It Burns & Razordons Instinctive Defense: Huzzah! These just got better!

    Engine of the Gods: It's that much more predictable now! Hooray results of 6-9!

    Well, you get the idea! What's also important is to find out whether your opponent has models that rely on these types of rolls, and target those with these two abilities. They may pull their hair out afterward.

    Aside from that, yeah, not much to say! It has a 2" melee weapon: that's cool!

    In conclusion, I think that we have better primary vassal options than our Starseer, but it's still a viable choice that will affect the entire game simply by having the ability to grant the Seraphon player added control over the battle round order: that is an incredible advantage. Not so much for being an ideal Arcane Vassal but rather an awesome utility, I'd include this fella in most of my lists.

    ps. Don't forget that it can unbind, and with CoF/Cosmic it can unbind or otherwise disrupt clutch spells pretty effectively!
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2016
    Webb8, Killer Angel and Bowser like this.
  12. Ixt
    Troglodon

    Ixt Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    604
    Likes Received:
    353
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Like I've said, a number of our Arcane Vassal options aren't particularly great choices if acting in a manner consistent with channeling/utility. They're either too slow, too volatile, or they just don't really stack up against warscrolls that compete for a similar role. Left to cover are the following:
    1. Tehenhauin, Prophet of Sotek (Skink Prophet),
    2. Skink Chief
    3. Engine of the Gods
    Here's a comparison drawn between two noble Skinks - the Skink Chief, and the Skink Prophet. I see the Skink Chief as a more utilitarian option, whereas the Skink Prophet has some offensive explosiveness:

    Command Abilities (if you'd like a Skink General)
    Their Command Abilities are pretty similar, though the Skink Chief's is, in my opinion, more impactful. I don't want to get ahead of myself or anything, because it really is tough to call: would you rather have +1 to hit for a Skink unit within 10" of the Chief, or a 36" diameter of a so-so rerolling hits of 1 for Skinks only? If the Skink Prophet is your general, surrounding him with Skink hordes/a few Skink monsters could earn you some mileage from his ability, but it's still not an ability to rely on.

    In contrast, that the Skink Chief provides a +1 hit modifier to a Skink unit. If it's already being buffed by its battalion, that's huge. If not, it's still pretty good.

    Placing 'Skink War Leader' on Camo Skinks is kind of an obvious choice, especially used in conjunction with 'The Trap is Sprung.' Funnily, you could place 'Skink War Leader' on the Skink Prophet for a slightly better chance at earning mortal wounds via 'Deadly Venom' (and hitting in general, since the Skink Prophet doesn't seem to be very accurate). Using the Chief's command ability on a monster with the 'Skink' keyword is also a good idea.

    Regardless of which ranks higher, a Skink Chief that's fielded as a General could make the Skink Prophet pretty lethal in the right situation but, unfortunately, the Skink Prophet seems to be just that: situational.

    Abilities
    Skink Chief's Marked for Greatness:
    Rerolling a dice in each phase is pretty sweet! This could make a miss hit, it could keep the Chief safe from scenery, or extend a run roll somewhat.

    Skink Prophet's Deadly Venom: Well, mortal wounds are nice and all but this just isn't too reliable. The Prophet won't fare too well in the sort of combats that demand mortal wounds since it really can't receive blows so well. To counter that, the 2" range on the Blade allows some safety for this model if it should find itself in combat. Once it gets in combat, 8 attacks that mortally wound on a 6 is pretty nice, especially if the Chief targets the Prophet with 'Skink War Leader.' The presence of this model in a Skink unit just has a 'cool factor,' I think.

    Skink Prophet's Priestly Rites: Roll a 4 or higher, and a Seraphon unit within 8" can reroll run, charge and save rolls. That stacks nicely with Mystic Shield in the same fashion as the Skink Priest's similar ability.

    The Skink Prophet is a flavorful, nifty choice! He's our very violent, heart-loving version of a Skink Priest, it seems. His command ability is so-so and despite being pretty easy to hide due to his small stature, he's pretty fragile for a General and demands a lot of support. The same goes for a Chief, but we knew that! If you're planning on going Skink-heavy with some monsters and you're fielding a Skink General, well, the Skink Chief may be the better option due to the +1 to hit command ability and the spells that it'll be channeling.

    Next up, The Engine of the Gods!

    [​IMG]

    Vrooom! ;)

    Although the Cosmic Engine is very cool, I'm not certain whether I like this thing as an Arcane Vassal! It's a fine model, but I just don't know about whether it can effectively/independently fill a channeling role. I suppose I feel that its place is in close combat due to the volatility of the Engine, which is exactly what worries me. It's as if you'll have to choose between exercising the Slann's extra 1d6 of control over the engine by remaining within 10" (and pretty much rendering the Arcane Vassal rule moot), or risk overextending it and falling out of channeling range anyway (rendering the Arcane Vassal rule moot).

    If you intend to walk this thing into enemy territory, just remember that the Slann needs to hold onto that 15" leash and follow right behind! You'll have to come up with a movement strategy that lets your Slann go far forward, while also peppering the Engine with Mystic Shield. It is going to draw a lot of fire, especially if you get the 6-9 result once or twice. The Thunderquake Starhost helps in this regard, given that the battalion heals wounds and offers good options in both 'swift' and 'savage' options for our monsters. On the contrary, I think a Regadon may be the better choice for a defensive army, offering a more consistent form of crowd control via Sunfire Throwers. It doesn't channel, but a 'turtleshell' strategy doesn't particularly require a Vassal. Interestingly, a Skink Chief can do wonders for a Regadon (and easily hide behind it, to boot).

    Perhaps the Engine is a great option for a dual-Slann strategy? One Slann & a detachment of Guard pace with the Engine as it moves forward so that there's extra control of the engine, while the other takes a more traditional role and sits far back, channeling spells through it? Meh. I've tried coming up with a number of tactics for this thing, but all of them seem to result in either a) putting too many eggs in one basket (like a 30+ wound basket), b) sending the thing forward into combat and forsaking its role as a vassal, or c) keeping it nearby and forsaking its role as a vassal. I've even tried using it as bait, but we have better options for that, too!

    Unless I've missed something, I think that that about finishes it for the Arcane Vassal list! I'm gonna go back and edit these posts soon, but with my trip to the UK coming up it may not happen 'til the start of April. Thank you guys for reading! Let me know whether I've missed anything! Thanks again. :)
     
    Webb8 likes this.

Share This Page