8th Ed. Are Troglodons or ancient stegs more competitive?

Topic. And why?

 

Stegs: harder to kill, they do more combat damage, and they have a better ranged attack.

 

Full disclosure: the troglodon does not impress me. I mean, the model is gorgeous, but I find the rules underwhelming. Nevertheless, let's do a side-by-side comparison and we'll see if I can sway you my way of thinking.

Ranged Combat

Troglodon
• Spit Poison: 18'' range, Strength 5, deals d3 wounds if it hits, Quick to Fire means that it's a good mobile firing platform and a bit scarier to charge... however, that attack is from a BS 3 platform. Poisoned Attacks helps a little, but only a little, because you're still hoping for that magic 6.
• Javelin: 12'' range, Strength 3, Poisoned Attack, Quick to fire. Similar abilities, but only a single shot and a single wound.
• Spells: Potential to arc damaging spells through the Skink oracle.

Ancient Stegadon
• 18'' range, 2d6 shots, Strength 3, Poisoned. This is a lot tastier. The high number of shots - on average, around 14! - mitigates the lousy Strength and BS.
• 1 Javelin... eh... not too impressive.

Overall: The ancient stegadon wins hands down. Like many Lizardmen ranged options, it's cursed with mediocre BS and lousy Strength. However, with its potentially huge number of attacks and Poison, this problem is mitigated somewhat. The troglodon, on the other hand, needs to hit with that one attack in order to enjoy the benefit of Multiple Wounds. Like the giant bow on the baby stegadon, you are going to miss that attack pretty regularly, especially if you want to move and shoot, or shoot at long range... and with 18'' to work with, you will pretty much always be at long range.


Melee Combat

Troglodon
• 3 attacks, Strength 5, at I2, Poisoned, plus a Strength 5 Stomp. Predatory Fighter is nice, but unreliable. WS 3.
• An additional Strength 3 attack at I4 from the rider. WS 2.

Ancient Stegadon
• Between 2 and 7 impact hits which can be upgraded to cause d3 wounds each.
• 3 attacks, Strength 6, at I1, plus a Strength 6 Stomp. WS 3
• 5 more attacks at Strength 4, I4. WS 2

Overall: Woah, does the stegadon ever win again wiith the potential to hit up to 16 times in the first round of combat! Ok, that's not very likely with a mediocre BS, but those Impact Hits are nice, especially with the upgrade, and has the potential to sway the combat in your favor before it's even begun. The Skink crew have enough attacks that even with their bad BS and poor Strength, there's a chance of them contributing. The troglodon, on the other hand, suffers from a similar problem in melee that it does at range - just not enough juice. The Poison is nice, but Poison thrives in situations where you have many low quality attacks. 3 is not many. By contrast, the stegadon gives you many high quality attacks. While many low quality attacks + Poison can be > few high quality attacks. Many high quality attacks > few high quality attacks + Poison.

Durability

Troglodon
• 5 Wounds, T5, 4+ Armor

Ancient Stegadon
• 5 Wounds, T6, 3+ Armor

Overall: Do the math. Stegadon wins.

Utility

Troglodon
• Can arc spells. Not bad on a M7 platform.
• Primeval Roar. Makes getting extra attacks from Predatory Fighter more likely. Not bad, if you can position it well.
• Diving Rod upgrade. An extra chance to get a power die... but still just on a 6. Not reliable enough to be worth it.

Ancient Stegadon
• No particular utility, except for having an enormous base.

Overall: Troglodon wins this category.

• • •

My opinion on the troglodon is that it tries to do too many things and doesn't do any of them well enough. It's got some neat utility bits, but isn't quite as useful as, say, a priest (or as a mount for a priest... which would have been nice). It's not a close combat monster like a stegadon. It's got a ranged attack that's trying to have penetrating power, but the low BS and single shot makes it too unreliable. If it did any one of those things very well - say it lost the ranged attack but had two more close combat attacks, or had a lower Strength but a better range and BS on its poison spit, or could serve as the mount for an actual Skink Priest rather than a moderately interesting pseudo-priest - then it would be a stronger combat, ranged, or utility piece.

As it is, it just... flops. Jack of too many trades, master of nothing.

 

I think that the troglodon would need to be re-imagined from the ground up as either a primarily ranged unit, a primarily melee unit, or as a mount for a skink priest that had the special quality of making the priest much more durable (ie. not subject to being sniped or punched off the stegadon's back). Any of those changes would have made it potentially worthwhile.

Making the troglodon marginally more durable and taking away an option we have all grown to appreciate to force us to take it anyway? That would have been awful.

 

Either this is a typo or I will be making you very happy, ancient stegs have 2 giant blowpipes so it's 4d6 shots

 

I was going to point out the 4D6 as well, but I think he knows as he does say they do an average of 14 shots.

Anyway, yeah, the Stegadon is a "better" choice because it is more clearly focused on simple damage output. The Troglodon is more subtle. I do think it's a tad overpriced, but it does so many different things that it had to have been hard to price it correctly.

I currently prefer the Troglodon. I'll say it again: I know the Ancient Stegadon is better.
I like him because of all those little things, and because the model is so freaking cool. Also, I only have the older metal stegadons (like about 5 or so of them I think) at the moment and it just feels wrong to call those things Ancients.

Because I use Saurus and 6-8 Krox, the PF boost is actually something of a big deal for me. When you add in the number of of monsters I use and how aggressively I play, I feel like my opponents are less worried about killing the Trog as well, so he should live longer. Of course, I've been playing stinky 2K games lately, which hurts him.


I say you should have both in your army.

 

Yes I agree, seems as though it would be nice also if the spit attack was a spray too or a template shot

 

Three things.

1) Don't oversell the giant blowpipes. It is MS(2d6) which means it has the same problems as blowpipes do - you need to be at short range to blast away, and forget about stand and shoot.

2) If they FAQ PF to work in secondary ranks, does your opinion of the troglodon change?

3) Don't undersell the spit attack. It is fundamentally the same as a giant bow, except quick to fire and 18" meaning you almost always hit on the same roll. It just doesn't pierce ranks

I know that the ASteg and Trog share the dame slot, but the more apt comparison is the baby steg where the troglodon is similar, swapping impact and armor for speed and arcane vessel. The regadon charges you, the troglodon flank purple suns you.

 

As has been pointed out, the trog tries to be a lot but in the end is nothing. it may be wirth taking if it had

- BS4
- a higher strength spit weapon. S5 doesn't cut it vs any kind of monster or MI. lets take ogres and compare it with a giant bow on a baby steg:

- more attacks at WS4 and S6. The ancient stegs thing is impact. The trog could be a stomper ie D6+1 stomp.
- a ward save vs shooting or regen. cannon scare stegs
- flaming breath at S4.

shooting for example:

Trog
10 inches away the trog needs 5s to hit. then 3s to wound then 1/3 to kill a bull with multiple wounds.
1/3*2/3*1/3 = 2/27 or 1/13.5


steggie
at 10 inches away with steggie needs 4s to hit then 3s to wound and 1/3 to kill a bull.
1/2*2/3*1/3 = 2/18 or 1/9

But the steggie is more likely to charge with horns and do real damage. The trog is not going to charge unless its an emergency.

even in shooting its rubbish. ranked 1 wound infantry ie slaves will lose at worst 1 model per shot that wounds. The giant bow should kill 2 to 3 without an armour save.

I don't buy the whole Oracle thing with a trog. Just get a skink priesr wack it on a steg and you get the same thing but better for 85 points more and not using rare or special slots. We don't usually have maxed out hero points.

The steggies are also stubborn so can lock units that aren't likely to kill it in place and grind them down. A horde of nurgle with their -1 to hit will beat the trog based on static CR. 3 ranks plus standard and any wounds done. The steg on 1 wound will hang around forever if near a slann and bsb. The priest steg can also challenge. The trog cannot.

Potential damage.
vs monsters:
trog has 3 attacks at WS3 S5 plus 1 skink so can at best do 4 wounds.
vs ogres that's 2S5 hit and 1 wound done.

steg has D6+1 impact and 3 attacks at WS S6 plus 5 skinks so at most can do 21 impact plus 8 further attacks for a total of 29 wounds.
vs ogres that's 4 impact average with no armour save = 8 wounds + 3 attacks = 2 hit a 2 wound + 5 skink attacks say 2 hit and 1 wounds but is saved by armour. Should comfortably do 10 wounds if it charges. that's almost 4 iron guts dead without striking. I always if possible tag team them with charging.

1 wound vs 10. 35 points more for an Asteg.


Nice model? definitely. Competitive even in a friendly game? not even close.

 

Purple Sun is a vortex; Arcane Vassal only works with direct damage and magic missiles.

 

Pit of Shades then. Its definitely polishing a turd, but short ranged scary magic (pit, dwellers, death snipes) synergize with the troglodon as a delivery mechanism. First turn advance 14 (M7 right? I'm at work) and then cast dwellers on that block of corsairs. Next turn - flee, next turn do it again and roar.

Bit of a gimmick, especially for the cost, but I think an FAQ for PF could save the model.

 

I think that Troglodon's different senses other than sight should have been added. Maybe allow its shooting attack to never suffer from cover / long range. But working with what we have...
I think a Trog is better compared to a Carnosaur than an Ancient Steg... They come in the same kit so it is a natural comparison for me to make. For 20 points less than a Carnosaur you lose 2 Strength (ouch), 1 attack, the bood frenzy rule, and multiple wounds. However, you also gain aquatic, arcane vassal (the big game-changer), poisoned attacks, predatory fighter, spit venom, and primeval roar (another nice benefit). Maybe it's me, but I fail to see how the Carnosaur can be a combat monster while the Troglodon is meh. Against basic infantry, it's only a 1 attack difference, and the Trog has the predatory fighter poisoned attack duo to make up for it. I'd say the Troglodon is better than the Ancient Steg, because the Ancient Stegadon is very good, but equating the Troglodon to the Carnosaur, I can see where GW came up with their points.

Carnosaur vs. Troglodon
+1 Attack vs. predatory fighter and poisoned attacks [pretty even]
Blood frenzy and multiple wounds vs. arcane vassal and primeval roar. [depends on how you use them. Maybe in favor of the Trog]
+2 Strength vs. spitting attack, aquatic, and skink javelin attack. [Carnosaur wins here, by far, as it can now take down other monster. However, The Trog has uses in all phases, and is 20 points less to make up for it.]
(Side note: I don't really think the divining rod is worth 15 points)

The Troglodon is a little niche, but it could have its uses. I think the Ancient Steg is better, because it has a clear focus, but the Troglodon could probably find its way into the right kind of list.

 

^ exactly this. Couldn't have said it better myself, man.

Edit: do Trogs have Swifstride? Haven't played them that way, but may have been my mistake.

 

I was running a list with two Troglodons. I've since updated that list to have 1 Trog, 1 Ancient Steg (with Engine of the Gods) and one Bastiladon (with Solar Engine)

I also run a Slann with the Skavenpelt Banner and Light Magic in a horde of Temple Guard (with the Razor Banner)

This works out nicely for me.

The Slann + Temple Guard get into combat early and wreak face. The Troglodon keeps back and lets me shoot my Light Magic Missiles from combat. His spit attack, while not reliable, can occasionally delight (I killed a Wood Elf general that was hiding alone in the woods in the middle of a game with it!)

Also, he has his roar for when I need that extra punch in combat. And I don't have to worry too much about pesky fast cav of scouts coming around my flank. The trog isn't much of a fighter, but he packs enough of a punch to handle lightly armored infiltrators (or allows you to aim magic missiles at them while your Temple Guard focus on the bigger picture)

Speaking of punch. The Ancient Stegadon is great to have along to double charge with the Temple Guard (if 31 S5 armor piercing attacks from the front and 16 supporting attacks isn't enough to win a combat). The impact hits + S6 Thunder Stomp are a nice addition to any combat. I prefer the Engine over the Blowpipes because if I'm not charging with the stegadon, then I'm probably marching with him so that I can charge. In either case, I'm not shooting the blowpipes. The Engine, however, gives my parryless Temple Guard a 6+ ward!

And the Bastiladon, what can I say about this little guy. He's probably not charging anything. I'd rather the Trog get into combat before the Bastiladon. He hangs around the Temple Guard to boost them up to I3 and protects a flank with his laser (Trog vassels Magic Missiles to one flank, the Bastiladon watches the other flank with this laser)

I3 Temple Guard are fairly protected from Purple Sun. Plus with a Light Magic Slann, ASF will give them rerolls against a lot of things without the need for the I10 buff. (I wouldn't complain about getting both I10 and ASF, though)

If it's late in the game, and my Temple Guard + Stegadon are engaged (with infantry) and need a little more help, I might charge the Bastiladon in for the +1 CR (maybe +2 if I can get a flank) and Thunder Stomp. I don't expect much from his 3 attacks (or the 3 skink attacks) even if one of those attacks is S10.

But what about cannons? I've got 3 juicy targets for cannons. Some monsters are going to die. But my opponent is going to have to make some decisions. Does he shoot the Bastiladon? I'll loose my +1I and the lazer, but I can still shoot magic missiles through the Trog and boot my Temple Guard to I10 with Light Magic.

Maybe he shoots the Stegadon. I loose the impact hits and 6+ ward. That's a bummer. But I'm still shooting flaming magic missiles all over the place with the Bastiladon and Trog. (I think the Stegadon is the correct monster to kill first)

Or he shoots at my Troglodon. That leaves me with both the Bastiladon and Stegadon alive. I can't vassel magic missiles any more. But I still have the Bast's missile, the Steg's Direct Damage, AND the 6+ ward. The Trog is practically immune to cannon fire because of the danger of the other monsters!

Even against 3 cannons, my opponent is most likely only going to kill 1 monster and maybe wound another. I expect to lose 1 monster before the thick of the battle begins, so that's not really a big deal.

Anyways, which is more competitive? I've never played a game of Warhammer where each side only brought 1 model to the table. So, I say bring all the monsters!

(* Depending on my mood my army also includes a butt-load of Skinks, or a giant unit of Saurus Spearmen (no need for parry with the Stegadon's 6+ ward) and either 3 levels of Skink Priests (all heavens... gotta get Comet vs Dwarfs and Empire) or Tetto'ekko (Slann + Temple Guard vanguard to the middle of the table FTW!))

 

Had my first use of a Trog last night and I was quite impressed actually.

The spit attack even managed to poison hit a wounded carnosaur (but only did 1 wound when doing 3 would have finished it off).
The Trog then got charged by said carnosaur, killing it (but not the SV rider) whilst being torn apart by the big beast! I like to think my Trog choked it to death whilst it was being eaten...

But what I did like was the roar. It enabled my Timewarped Saurus to put out enough attacks to kill off two Stegadons.

Yes, it's a shame the roar doesn't happen more often, but there's a nice tactical choice to be made about when to use it, which makes the game more interesting.


Like Scalenex says, if you run through his questions and get a few 'Yes' answers then the Trog seems like it can have a place in your army.

I'm just looking forward to trying it out again!