7th Ed. Aren't Skink Skirmishers Useless?

Hey, I am new to fantasy, and while makin my first amry list i took a look at Skink skirmishers, as I thought the 2x shoots was awesome, but then I looked again, and they suddenly seem, totally useless.

I am not sure about this, so please tell me if anything is wrong.

First of all the Skink skirmishers have a range of 12". I wouldn't want to get too close to the enemy, so the shot will probally be a long range shot, resulting in me hitting on 5+. Second: My Skinks are not just gonna stand still and wait for the enemy, so i will have -1 penalty for moving and shoot, bringing my chance on hitting to a 6+. Now 6+ is a very low chance, if I (Let's say I use a sqaud of 10) only have 10 shots. And I can't even use my 2x shots, because that would bring my to hit chance to a 7+ which would mean a 6 followed by 4,5 or 6. If this is true, it makes the skirmishers almost useless.

If we now take a look at normal Skinks equipped with javelins, the new rules in 8th for javelins, give them the range of 12"! and not 8" as it used to be, so it is just as good as the blowpipe. And javelins don't suffer any penalty for moving and shooting, nor do they suffer any penalty for shooting at longe range.

It seems to me that the normal Skinks are far better than the Skink Skirmishers, because they don't have any penalties for moching and shooting or shooting at long range.

I am just a newb at fantasy, I just started to make army list and reading the rules yesterday, so please tell me if I've misread anything or something is wrong.

 

The benefit to skirmishers is the jungle poison rule. So all the shots will auto wound with a natural 6 on the to hit roll. They are our only real defense against giants, doom wheels, hydras, dragons etc.... It was relatively easy to get into range, or not move and get double shots. Also even if you do get in close and get destroyed it is only a 70 point unit, they by far make up their points.

 

I am not sure I understand what you mean, as the normal skinks, also have jungle poison and the way I understand the rules, is that a role of 6 auto wounds, mean it "skips" to wound roll, and he can't take armour saves against it, but even if I role a 6, (assuming that use 2x multiple shots), I still have to roll 4,5 or 6 after the first 6, before it "skips" the to wound and armour saves. Is this correct?

This is incorrect, when 7+ is needed to hit, the poison rule does not apply.

 

Okay, I did some math on it and this is what I came up with:


Assuming that I am using a 10 javelin skinks, and 10 blowpipe skinks, shooting at some giant.

The blowpipe skinks shoot 20 shots at the giant. A 6th of theese shots are jungle poison shots. That's 3.333. But If what I wrote about the 6, and then 4,5 or 6 to hit in the above post is right, it is then halfed, and becomes 1.666

The javelin skinks shoots 10 shots at the giant. A 6th of theese shots are jungle poison shots. That's 1.666

So it seems that javelins and blowpipes have the same chance to use poison, but the skirmishers cost more (20p in the case) and as far as I can see, that's just a waste of points.

 

Okay, I just read in 7th ed rulebook, that poison attacks, does not take place, if a 7+ is need to hit. This means that if skirmishers use 2x multiple shots, the poison won't work(Assuming it's moving and shooting and long range shooting), and poison only works when shooting one shot each, meaning, that there is difference at all between blowpipe and javelin poison. But javelins, can hit with non poison attacks too, and the cost of normal Skinks are cheaper than skirmishers.

Is this correct?

 

Only if it a 7+ to roll, and if it is a 7+ to hit then poison does nothing. A lot of times in 7th at least you would use the double shot on a Large Target and this would bring the to hit back down to 6+. Also in 7th they were used to screen units, though that has gone to the wayside with true line of sight.

In 8th it is still up in the air whether to go with blowpipes or javelins see
http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/skinks-javelins-v-blowpipes-8th-ed.4120/

But also now in 8th you can march and shoot, you have an effective 18" range for double shots(so you will be at short range), and a 24" range for single shots. Javelins have an effective range of 24" but no possibilities of a double shot.

They may not be as good in 8th, but they were invaluable in 7th.

 

In 8th you are paying the 20 extra points for the ability to march and shoot(skink cohorts can not do this I believe), as well as the ability to do free reforms. The movement flexibility is what you are paying for. You can get skirmishers with Javelins at an extra point per skink if you desire as well.

 

Okay, as far as I understand, the blowpipes are only good against large targets because they bring the to hit down to 6+. As I haven't got the 8th ed rulebook or a PDF of it, I didn't knew about the march and shoot, but I now see that this is quiete good for the skirmishers. So to kill large targets I will use blowpipes, otherwise I will favour the javelins, because of the chance to make normal wounds as well.

 

Well the large target rule no longer exists in 8th. But the march and shoot plus the double tap, and the free reforms is what gives the skirmishers the advantage over cohorts. Cohorts only have an effective range of 18" with the javelins as well. You will get to use double shots more often then you realize. Also I am not sure if it is the same in 8th but skirmishers also get a -1 to hit when an opponent shoots at them.

 

Well if the large target doesn't exist in 8th, that would mean skirmishers (with blowpipes) are up to 7+ to hit when moving and shooting, long range (6"+) and double tap, which makes the poison useless :/ So I can't double tap if I want to move, or if I am more than 6" away.

 

Large target still exists I believe.

 

I didn't think it did, or does it just not matter for LOS anymore?

Either way your looking at it wrong as the double tap is only useless at long range(assuming you don't get the -1 for large target), you can still use it at short range, and you can get in short range if your within 18", so pretty easily. Or if you don't move that turn.

In pure numbers the javelins are quite comparable to blowpipes, however you are comparing cohorts to skirmishers. The movement benefits of the skirmishers far outweigh that of the cohorts, and sure you might not double tab all the time, but that option is still always there. It is up to you if the 20 points is worth the mobility.

 

Yeah I am almost certain there is no large target anymore..

 

Oh yeah, I didn't think of the moving and shooting infact increased the range of them. Thanks

 

Let's see if I understand this (for a unit of 12 skinks/squirmishers OR 7 Chameleons):

-Skirmishers can march (12") and shoot blowpipes twice at 6" and still get poison (-1 for movement but can march and fire, -1 because of double-tap). So 18" 24 shots, poison.
-Skirmishers can march (12") and shoot blowpipes once at 12" and still get poison(-1 for movement but can march and fire, -1 for long range). So 24" 12 shots, poison.
-Skirmishers can march (12") and shoot javelins once at 12" and still get poison(no penalty for movement but can march and fire, -1 for long range). So 24" 12 shots, poison.
-Cohorts can move (6") and shoot javelins once at 12" and still get poison (no penalty movement because of Quick to fire, but -1 for long range). So 18" 12 shots, poison.
-Chameleons can march (12") and shoot blowpipe twice at 12" ans still get poison (-1 for movement but can march and fire, -1 because of double-tap, -1 because of long range, but BS4). So 24" 14 shots, poison.

Is that correct?

Phil

 

You are wrong on the Javelins getting a penalty for long range. Thrown weapons do not take a penalty for shooting at long range. So you are more likely to get normal hits, and then roll to wound.

Everything else was correct.

 

Large target exists, I believe I did come across it. Something about not benefiting from cover provided by infantry.

I must admit that I didn't know blowpipes had an option to double-tap. I just assumed they always did.
Interesting. Thanks guys! (But for completeness' sake, page reference?)

Cheers!

 

Large Target still exists, just slightly different. There is no +1 to shoot at a large target, but a large target cannot benefit from standing behind cover/units.

 

The only things large target does now are..
1. Not able to claim soft cover save from obstacles (fences etc.)
2. Extends inspiring presence/hold your ground to 18 inches.

Large targets can get the usual -2 to hit modifier, if they are over 50% obscured by units or buildings etc.

But yeah, +1 to hit is gone!