AoS Brainstorming 2k Fangs of Sotek army lists

I still havent gotten any games in yet due to the current corona status, but been brainstorming ideas for some more competitive lists. I really like Fangs of Sotek and think it offers us the most tools in a competitive setting - Both summoning and teleporting.

Im a really big fan of loads of bodies, so most lists have 140+ wounds. I also think bound endless spells will be amazing on the table - Not only for MW output but also to block movement. Most of the endless spells I have picked have a huge foot print so they cover a lot of ground, but they are also casted on a rather high value, which makes dispelling them a pain for most armies. Since we get tons of +casting, the high cast is not really an issue for us. The damage output is icing on the cake.

Im a believer of summoning despite it being "nerfed" (I would argue changed) - I see many people think it is "trash", but I think it will be huge in a competitive setting. If your enemy start picking off your Priest/Starpriest (they are super squishy), then your output suddenly drops ALOT. Summoning will allow you to refuel heroes which many armies cant do. The CPPs will generally be used depending on the situation - Either 10 Skinks for screens, or new Skink Priest/Starpriest. This is also why I find Skinks/Starborne superior to Coalesced - Once the Saurus heroes die off, Saurus knights/warriors will hit like a wet noodle. Our units are so reliant on synergies and buffs, so not being able to refuel those past turn 2 will make your damage output lackluster.

The plan with my lists below are to double down on synergies. The frogs will generate tons of CPs to spam the FoS CA ability but also for +1 to hit/reroll 1s to hit. Ontop of this they will generate CCPs for summoning, but also give you powerful casters to sling spells/endless spells. I have tried to squeeze out maximum value out of every unit I have selected for the lists.

Edit: None of the lists include a batallion. I personally find them too weak for various reasons.
1) We cant really get low enough a drop count anyways for it to really start mattering imo. Im also not too worried about not having a say in who goes first - If the opponent has an alphastrike army, there are plently of Skinks to screen your army. You might lose 40 Skinks, but now the opponent is in your face and is in a world of trouble with Kroak spamming CD/other spells/endless spells, plus your opponent risk you getting the double turn. If I on the other hand get the first turn, I can position the Skinks in a way that even with 2 turns my opponent wont get to Kroak etc. whilst still throwing out spells etc. He also has to worry about my Skinks just jumping back when using the FoS CA.
2) The extra artefact doesnt feel strong enough - None of our generic ones really stand out and feel that game changing. Aetherquartz could be great, but still - On paper the CP generation should be strong enough.
3) They cost a ton of points. 150ish is no joke and is either an important buff support hero, a lot of endless spells or screens/important units.
4) They are too restrictive when it comes to list building. None of them really fit what I want my lists to do on the table. In theory I could get a Shadowstrike batallion in the list with 9 Terradons, but I dont find it worth it considering 1), 2) and 3).

Spoiler: FoS - Double Frog Trouble

This is the first list I made based on the ideas and principles above. Tons of CPs to buff, tons of CCPs to refuel heroes/screens (on average 8 a turn). Tons of casters to sling spells/endless spells.

Spoiler: FoS - Double Comet Trouble

This list is a little more aggressive version of the list above - I sacrificed the Slann for the Knight-Incantor ally and the Everblaze Comet.

The idea is to not really care as much about harvesting CCPs to summon, but instead bombard your opponent with spells/MWs. The Everblaze Comet coupled with Kroak's Comet's Call will make short work of most support heroes. Both Comets are almost board-wide (36" on Everblaze) so you can do this from turn 1 and outside of unbinding range. The Everblaze Comet is especially strong when it lands, and our ability to dispell boardwide with Kroak means you can cast it from far away, dispell it in your next hero phase and recast for maximum MW output. This will fry stuff.

Spoiler: FoS - Tiktaq'to returns

We are back to the idea of the first list, just switched 5 Guards and 3 units of Salamanders for 9 Terradons + Chief. This will depend on if the 5 Guards prove to be needed for Slann/Kroak's survival, or if you can manage without.

The idea here is to introduce a unit that can suicide and pretty much remove whatever big threat your opponent has, like a Maw Krusha, Stonehorn, Terrorgeist etc. Together with the other spells/some shooting they should die rather easily.

Spoiler: FoS - 6 Sallies 18 Handlers

This list gives up some bodies for more firepower, and can really allow you to be extremely offensive from turn 1.

You can teleport 1 unit of Salamanders.
The other unit of Salamanders will have (12" range + 8" move + 3" FoS turn 1 move) = 23" threat range. If you use the Skink Priest staff (run and shoot), you can add D6" to this.
The Skinks got a 27" threat range (16" range + 8" move" + 3" FoS turn 1 move").

The idea is that Salamanders are awesome on their own and dont really care too much about the Starpriest staff, so you can reserve that buff on the blob of 40 Skinks. All the Salamanders want is a +1 to hit, potentially reroll 1s to hit buff.

I thought about Bound Burning Head instead of the Quicksilver Swords. On paper the Burning Head is absolutely insane and will free up tons of CPs, but I worry it will be too awkward to actually play with on the table, since you need to move it at the start of the battle round, and if you go second in a battle round it is a bit of a gamble where you place it.



Would really like to hear your comments!

 

Ive used a similar list to the first one but as a 1000pt and it worked really well for the objective game and makes a great core for the 1000. slann general, kroak and astrolith bearer bringing a few endless spells as well. Forces your opponent to spread out to try and compete for objectives and i can see that adding more bodies and power such as salamanders it could do a lot of work.

You will control the magic game having 9 casts after bale wind meaning you certainly have enough to spare to get extra summoning points. Kroak being an easy +4 to cast is super dangerous to your opponent considering the mortal wounds he can output. I agree that star borne is for sure the better faction to take, the teleport is one on the best tools you could ask for and it has no restrictions or requirements other than the usual losing outside of 9" from enemies.

Ive found salamanders do really well by having just 2 buffs. skink priest +1 to hit and starriest spell hand of glory for re roll 1s. keep 1 unit of 3 around the 2 priests for buffs then they can clear almost anything really. you will frequently deal roughly 15-20 wounds with them even against a good save.

I would think the last list with salamanders would be very effective, leaning more into the salamanders rather than skink hordes as you can on average summon in and teleport 10 each turn anyway.

 

Yeah it is certainly a tradeoff of more bodies vs more damage output. The Starpriest staff doesnt provide nearly as much damage on the Salamanders as it does on 40 Skinks, partly due to the "It Burns" ability on the Salamanders, hence I like the idea of 2x40 blobs, since if your first unit dies you dont have as much stuff to throw your buffs at, or at least not get the same value. The Hand of Glory from the Starpriest is also great on 1 unit of Salamanders, since it not only gives them reroll 1s to hit in shooting, but also in melee if you get a charge in.

Im really excited to try the double Comet list, although 240 pts. feels like a lot, I still think it got some gas in the tank - Especially since many armies rely heavily on their support heroes.

 

I completely agree with your edit about battalions. in particular for star borne you are reducing your effectiveness and models on the table to take one. your not going to lean into saurus realistically in star borne so sun claw and firelance are out. Thunderquake could have some intesting use as you can have a lot of healing going onto your monsters (engine+battalion effect+celesital apotheosis) but again you'd be sacrificing so many points for it.

I've used firelance in coalesced and it works well because you lean into the saurus charge play style.

 

There's one big problem with this strategy - most useful hero buffs are used in Hero Phase, thus, you have to summon a hero beforhand, if you want to use them when you need them. This means, you have to predict, when you need the hero. It is not impossible, but it is way harder to rely on it. And starpriest/seer cost 15 CCP, which is too much to invest, IMO. Just bringing a salamanders will be better for the most of times.

On the matter of the lists, I think, every 40-man skink unit needs a Starpriest for poison. The Starvenom is essential for their damage outpu. Priest's CA is important too, but, at least, you can try and command to two units at a time - holding both wholly within 18 is not impossible. His prayer is good, but not as impotant. I see, that is is hard to find place for it, but I'd probably risk and drop Guard - you will be able to summon them, at least - just hide your slanns turn 1 or place them out of reach. Alternatively, you can sacrifice one small unit of skinks and purple sun. I think, that ouput from venom will give you more+you can give Tide of Serpents to the second starpriest to increase anti-horde effectiveness.

Concerning salamanders list - why do you take jaws and swords, but not Pendulum? Swords are so random - they really shine only against chaos in chamon. Or just take burning head - I never had problems with it and it is unlikely that your opponent will get any benifits from it.

 

Well it is not that you summon them in and then use them, it is the fact that you can even get them back. So much utility/damage output is tied into your heroes, so armies that pick them off in turn 1 or 2 will leave you stranded for the rest of the game. This gives you an option to reload and keep going strong. In half your games you will have enough points by turn 2 to summon one in. The Priest can buff multiple units, where as the Starpriest functions as a CP generator, caster and also a buffer. Im pretty sure this is significantly better than 1 Salamander for 10 CCP.

Yeah I would love an extra Starpriest, just not sure what to cut. I could summon an extra in turn 2 (on average). I like Purple Sun a lot vs. a meta with units having multiple wounds, DPR saves/MW saves and again the foot print is huge, so you can really block movement.

I picked the Jaws because it has a huge foot print, not for the debuff or MW output. It also has a high casting value, which makes it harder to get rid of. 9+ on 2 dice is no easy feat for many armies. My general idea with the Bound Endless Spells is to constrict the movement of my opponent and try to engage on my terms. Im not too worried about Fyreslayers if those little naked dudes cant even engage, or only engage with a couple of models at a time. The MW/effects is icing on the cake really.

I dont remember exactly because the list is in a PDF on my work PC, but I believe it was 2.000 pts on the nose. The Pendulum costs 60 pts., so I cant switch the Swords for it. Swords are also rather mobile and has a range of 6", where as the Pendulum moves in a straight line and hits whatever is within 1". Keep in mind all Bound spells ignore added effects from specific realms. But Swords will on average do 2 MWs vs non Chaos, where as Pendulum is 3,5 MW. Vs Chaos the Swords will do 4 MWs.

I like the idea of the Burning Head, but if you move it in the start of battle round 2 and your opponent takes the first turn, you really need to predict far ahead where his models and your models exactly will be. 9" radius is alright, but not super huge. I will test it out, but I worry it will be too awkward to actually play with on the table, especially when our models are so mobile.

 

You really can not compare the two like this. The variance of swords is so much higher than the pendulum. Pendulum will always deal damage where swords often deal no damage. Likewise as often as pendulum will deal 1 damage it is also as likely to deal 6 damage. Where each extra mortal wound is less and less likely for swords. You can slam the pendulum into a hero and hope it gets there where it is very unlikely the swords will get there for you.

 

Wait a minute, what's the point of summoning them if you don't need to use them? If you summon a priest turn 2, you won't gain any benifit from it till turn 3. And by turn 3 the game may be lost already. If you summon a salamander - it is right there and can shoot from the start. It is not necessary better in very single case, but way easier to utilize, which means, that things are less likely to go wrong. Like, you can bring a priest and he is sniped again before doing anything, because he is still 4 wounds, 5+ save. Salamanders are not much better, but they will at least 100% do something before dying.

Once again, if you summon it by turn 2, it will only be used by turn 3. And by turn 3 one of your skink blocks can easily be dead. You are losing about 14 possible mortal wounds, which is potentially a dead monster. Guard, on another hand, usually more viable exactly from turn 2-3 and onward, since you can hide slann or put him out of range turn 1. And, most importantly, they start to protect slann as soon as they are set up - they do what they need instantly and don't need to wait a turn.

I get how you want to use the ES for roadblocking, but in this case, is it worth to bother with another 40 skinks block? Their damage output is not amazing and they are not the tankiets things ever too. Any army can deal with a 40-men 5+ save horde, so it has to deal damage to pay off.

Yes, but swords can easily deal 0 MW, while pendulum will always yield you at least 1 for every unit it pass across. Yes, it is not as good for roadblocking, but it will more likely do serious damage and applies more pressure. Unbidning and recasting is the way to go.

Burning head is not that hard to use. Just not try to stay in aura at all costs. I try to stick it near salamanders, because they have about the same speed. It is not as essential as in TL, but still saving a couple of CP can be very handy.

 

Sure the summoning happens after the hero phase, so yeah support heroes wont get to buff until your next hero phase, but I dont see that as worthless at all. Many games last until the much later turns. It might also be much easier to summon in the support hero in a protected location by turn 2/3, and by then you might also have dealt with the long range sniping your opponent has.

But that is why summoning is great - You get to reload whatever you need, be it screens or heroes etc. You are not forced down one lane. I just dont see myself summoning in a single Salamander for 10 CCP often.

I think 1 blob of 40 Skinks is too easy to deal with for the opponent and makes a simply too weak of a list. We arent the only army with means of dealing with hordes. You also gotta keep in mind that the 4+ retreat move is rather unreliable, and if your single blob of Skinks dies, you suddenly lost a lot of synergy in the list. Sure you can buff Salamanders, but the Starpriest staff is kinda wasted on 12 attacks.

You can also send them in waves - Buff one to the max and aim to pick off something. If you get charged and fail to retreat (your unit is now likely dead or severely injured), do the same again on a fresh blob of 40 Skinks and clean up.

In general bodies win games, so I dont really see what you want to swap them for. Even if 40 unbuffed Skinks wont kill Archaon, they will threaten almost any objective quite easily, if anything due to body count. I think lists with Skink blobs of 40, 10 and 10 are kinda too weak when it comes to bodies on the actual table.

5 Guards for 10 CCP is certainly a thing, but there are currently lists with a lot of firepower from turn 1 that worries me. OBR with multiple Crawlers giving them extra attacks, Tzeentch flamers, CoS with the bridge stuff and shootcast. Im sure there are more things. But again, Im not entirely sold on the 5 Guard - Playtesting will show if Slann/Kroak can reliably stay alive, in which case I'll ditch them for something else - Maybe an extra Starpriest instead of 5 Guards + Swords/Burning Head, would allow me to buff both of the 40 blobs to put on a little more heat early on.

I agree with @Lambs and Lions that there is a lot of variance in the swords. You risk dealing nothing, but you can also spike on them. In general I like the control of the Swords, where as the Pendulum is rather easy to avoid, and it isnt often you can actually move it the 8" across a unit if it is strung out, so you probably wont hit multiple units. The Swords can hit something 6" away after it has moved, and in the current meta Chaos isnt exactly rare, which makes them significantly better. Im not gonna lie though - Im not in love with them, and they will be the first spell I swap for another endless spell or for another unit with the Guards etc.

I like the idea dispell + recast Pendulum every turn into a tough unit, but that is 2 casts tied up. If you want to stack up on CCP you dont exactly have loads of casts available. You have 9 base, 2 sacrificed for 2d3 CCP. If you want to do the dispell and recast you are down another 2. That leaves you with 5 actual spell casts for the potential of 3 endless spells, 2-3 lore spells, 1-3x CD on Kroak, Comet's Call.

 

I'm not saying, that it's worthless. More like suboptimal. You see, if you can effectively summon a skink hero and utilize it, you are already, probably, have an upper hand.

I ran a blob of 40 skinks in every 2.0 game and my opponent never easily got read of them. 40 wounds are a lot. In one game they enured 3 or 4 combat phases against 20 blade mortek and arkhan (with a bit of help fom EotG). In another games (coalesced this time and with 6+ FnP) half of 40 stack survived the shooting of the whole 2k Kharadron list. Literally. They are not ultra-durable, but still not as squshy as they've used to be. That's why I say, that two blobs with 1 starpriest are necessary bad. Once again, more like suboptimal. I must admit, that I played only against high-save armies so far. Maybe, against 5+/6+ skinks are alright even without venom.

Concerning 4+ retreat - the point, IMO, is not in if you can actually get it off, but more in the sheer possibility. You opponent should consider twice, if he really wants to charge skinks, 100% get the damage and then, half of the time, get nothing in return, because they ran away.

Yes, you can. I just a fan of dealing maximum damage before the enemy gets to you. I mean, why send them in waves, if you can strike simultaneously?

More salamanders, for example. For they same price they will actually kill stuff and don't need as much support. And still 12 bodies, which will outscore quite a lot of units. More importantly, you cannot score objectives if you are dead. And you can still bring additional bodies with summoning, if you feel, that you don't get enough. Once again, I faced mostly elite armies, but didn't have a single problem with outscoring them with single unit of 40 skinks and multiple 10-man.

Tzeentch and CoS could be a problem. Crawlers doesn't seem too much like it, because of their limited range and low mobility in general. I managed to place my heroes and skink horde far enough, so they can't reach them turn 2. On the other hand, it 5 guard, probably, won't be enough against shooting alpha-strike anyway.

And concerning - once again, my personal taste. I don't think, that you should exactly swap them for pendulum. I'd just take any straight up d3/d6 spell because of control. I just used to random stuff doing nothing exactly when you need it desperately to do at least something. I don't hate them either.

Anyway, just my thoughts. Actually, getting the second priest is the only thing that I'd strongly advise. It is just so good.

 

I mean in general a lot of my ideas and plans are up in the air. I dont even know if a list with both Kroak and Slann is viable or if you are sinking too many points into having both. It just looks great on paper, and really doubles down on all the synergies. Maybe the bound endless spells turn out lackluster (I doubt it though, they are really strong without being bound, and paying just 10 pts for never worrying about them turning on you is a steal).

Im curious about the general damage output - If the damage is high enough against some of the stronger armies and we can remove models off objectives, then reducing Skink blobs to 40/10/10 isnt bad in order to get more oompf. Otherwise it is kinda pointless to invest too much into damage if we have to play a style where we must delay/prevent the opponent from getting onto objectives, in which case more bodies makes sense.

Same with the idea of generating maximum CCPs - Maybe it will just feel bad during play, but it looks OK on paper imo. If it turns out shit, some things will certainly be switched around.

On paper Im sold, but a lot of playtesting will give a better idea of how the list(s) play on the table and finetuning will happen afterwards.

A quick fix for the Starpriest (120 pts) could be to ditch the 5 Guards (100 pts) and the Jaws (40 pts). It just feels bad to gain casters, but lose endless spells.

 

This is the thing I want to try, but you really need both balewind and astrolith to work. Slann frees casting slots for Kroak, so he can bombard enemy with comet's call, deliverence and 1 more spell (thanks to vortex) - probably Stellar tempest, Arcane Bolt or Apotheosis/generate CCP. Slann, meanwhile, can cast Equilibrium, Endless Spells and Realm Spells - almost every realm has 2-3 very good spells worth spamming. This is a lot of mortal wounds and command points+CCP. I still think, that creating roadblocks with skinks, while bombarding enemy with spells/skinks/salamanders is the best way to use CCP in this builds.

Endless spells seem good, but I've seen them mostly in batreps - mortal wounds stack quickly and they are great at sniping characters. I myself tested only the balewind, burning head, emerald swarm and geminids. Geminids are the beast and the first thing to grab if you are building around ES or if you have spare 70 pts. Head is OK, but I've overestimated it a bit. Still a very strong choice for TQTH build, since it is the most CP hungry one. Swarm is fun, but not worth its points, imo. And balewind is a musthave only for Starborne Kroak - inability to move may be a problem for Coalesced.

It is way higher than I personally expected. I managed to table petrifex guard in my first game with 40 venom skinks and 2x3 salamander packs. I am sure, you can destroy any enemy if you know when and where to strike. No more relience on running away - we cannot perform it as effective as before withour warry fighters and double teleportation. Positioning is still a key, however, because you really need buffs from your characters which has to be wholly within 12/18".

CCP is meh - wouldn't rely on them too much. If things are going good, you may save them to finish your opponent with a single decisive strike, summoning strong stuff like 3 Kroxigors or 20 saurus. Otherwise - summoning skinks is still the best option, because you will need any means to stop your opponent, if things are getting rough.

 

Having Kroak and slann is super viable I've found, you can generate and average of 8 ccp with slann general, astrolith and giving up a spell on kroak and slann. thats 10 skinks a turn if you want. excellent for board control since you summon them end of movement phase and also can teleport end of movement phase.i think the summoning is one of the most underrated mechanics in general consensus. people need to stop comparing it to what it was. like i say you can get 8ccp average and you still have 6 casts between kroak and slann its extra units.

Kroak and slann in dracothians tail with endless spells, very strong but difficult to play

 

Yeah I see loads of potential. Question is if summoning will be good enough so you pretty much always default to giving up 2 spells (1 each). This means Kroak will only cast Comet’s Call + 1x CD + A combination of 2 of: Stellar Tempest, more CDs or 1 Endless spell. Slann will just cast Celestial Equilibrium + 1 Endless spell.

Or if generating CCP is “decent” and will be only from time to time. You could easily use the 5 casts on Kroak and 3 on Slann. Especially if you factor in Realm spells.

 

I played a 1500 game with the kroak, slann combo in Dracothians tail. So the slann general knew equilibrium and apotheosis(spell buff and heal) kroak has stellar. Also had balewind in there so my slann was casting 2 each turn (mostly equilibrium and an endless if you want to), kroak doing 4. That’s a comet and 3 CD or you also cast tempest or an endless. Gives you the option depending on situation. Decided to bring in a bastiladon turn 3. I felt it was worthwhile

 

Did you get anything out of the deepstrike ability? Or did you just pick Draco for double spell and artefact?

 

Didn’t even use the deep strike but that’s only because I didn’t have use for it in the scenario. I think always having that option is super useful. Could keep a few units in the heavens then teleport kroak or slann to a location and drop units around them. Good for a scenario where you have a lot of central objectives. Wouldn’t get much out of using FOS. The slann command trait is really good to have and the artefact is a decent bonus as well

 

The deep strike seems alright, although it feels largely all-in ish to me. Like you teleport the Slann and drop loads of Salamanders to nuke stuff. It could be interesting against armies that can alpha you with a heavy shooting list like Cities/KO etc. The only issue is that if they nail your Slann everything in the sky is dead.

Fangs of Sotek seems really strong all around, regardless if you use the CA for primarily damage or not. Flat +3 movement on pretty much your entire army in turn 1 is great for objectives. Using the CA on a unit of 10 Skinks is still rather awesome. In some situations it would be almost identical to an ability with 4+ to summon a new 10 man unit.

 

Been sleeping a bit on my original list and came up with this modified version.

Spoiler: FoS - Double Frog Trouble v2

Im really sad of letting the Bound Purple Sun go, but to be fair we likely dont need it with the MW output from especially Kroak. Im not too certain on the spell for the second Starpriest. I like the battleshock immunity, but might opt out for the Tide of Snakes for more horde clearing abilities. My only issue is that it is cast on a 8, and with the Starpriest following one blob of 40 Skinks around, he likely wont be within the Astrolith radius, so a CV 8 spell is unreliable in my eyes - The range is also kinda short (within 12"). His battleshock immunity spell is only CV 5. His warscroll spell is also rather good (CV 6) with Geminids flying around, -2 to hit is rather absurd defense.

I could ditch the Jaws and upgrade 1 Starpriest to a Starseer, but I dont think the Starseer is a better choice than a second Starpriest for this kind of list. I might switch Jaws for Bound Burning Head, but I like the idea of deepstriking the Salamanders when there is a vulnerable key target, and trying to fit 40 models within 9" of the Burning Head sounds iffy to me.

I think my original plan of throwing a ton of bound endless spells on the table to control movement and churn out MWs every round etc. is too slow of a strategy against many armies. We also have a lot of really useful spells, so without even sacrificing a spell on each of Kroak and the Slann, we can easily use up every spell cast without trouble.

This version feels a lot more "plug and play" in the sense that you cast Hand of Glory (very reliable with CV5 and +1 from Astrolith and potentially +1 from Celestial Equilibrium from Slann in turn 1) on the Salamanders, Starpriest each of the 40 Skinks, depending on CP gain you give +1 to hit on each blob of 40 Skinks and the Salamanders. You can then teleport the Salamanders if there is an opening or if you want a certain unit dead. The Skinks move 11" first round to get onto objectives etc. and got a 16" range = 27" threat range, which should be enough to shoot turn 1. You obviously want to keep a couple of CPs for the enemy charge phase to shoot and try to retreat.

 

I’ve played a bit with the starseer and to be honest he’s not that great. Not as good as a slann and not better enough than the starpriest, I only see him being good in a list of you plan a strategy specifically with him.
Might be worth having bind endless spell on the starpriest as a situational clutch spell