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8th Ed. Cannon at Carnosaur Wound distribution?

Discussion in 'Rules Help' started by Wise Kroxigor, Dec 3, 2014.

  1. Wise Kroxigor
    Skink

    Wise Kroxigor New Member

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    I do not really understand how you determine who is hit by a cannonball... Do you roll the 1-4 mount and 5-6 rider thing for, "ridden monster", are they both hit, or is only the mount hit? The cannon rules don't have anything about ridden monsters, and the ridden monsters rule doesn't have anything about cannonballs (as far as I can tell). I just want to understand :beaver: (cannon sniping monsters) a little better.
     
  2. Stonecutter
    Terradon

    Stonecutter Member

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    If a carnie rider is hit by a cannon template, both the rider and mount are hit and the to-wound and number of wounds are resolved separately. The cannon is a template attack and thus is not randomized. See page 105, first sentence under Templates on the bottom right of the page.
     
  3. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    and this in one of the main complaints against the ridiculous cannon rules.
     
  4. SilverFaith
    Terradon

    SilverFaith Member

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    Aside from the "laser precision" cannons have.
     
  5. Ixt
    Troglodon

    Ixt Well-Known Member

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    It's always amusing to hear cannon apologists undermine the completely absurd efficiency of their war machines.

    ---
    "But there's a 1/6 chance for this and that! Averages and stuff!"

    "Sooo basically your counter argument to a statement like, 'Cannons are overpowered, underpriced, and/or all of the above' is, 'Well, sometimes I roll a 1!'? (facepalm) By the way, I don't think that using an average is an effective way to measu--"

    "Does your Carnosaur or its Rider have a ward save? If not, they both just took 4 wounds each."

    "... (fails Berserk Rage check to withhold from flipping table, and flips table)"
    ---
    I hope that they get fixed. They're ridiculously lethal for what they cost right now.
     
  6. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    I just hope Skull Cannons of Khorne get fixed. The others I'm okay with.
     
  7. NexS1
    Carnasaur

    NexS1 Well-Known Member

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    If the stupid combined profile monster/rider dealio gets rolled into 9th ed then you'll have your answer.
    However, I sincerely hope that the combined profiles is an End Times only thing. Prices of units won't change until new Army Books are released. We're probably looking at the next couple of years, I'd say.
     
  8. lordkingcrow
    Temple Guard

    lordkingcrow Active Member

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    I miss the days when you couldn't measure everything. I have a Dwarf army and while I have run a gun line before, I don't do it so much. (Unless I feel the need to utterly crush someone... My uncle's ogres come to mind...) Aside from that... Strollaz all the way!
    The way we use to play was that you had to give units of measure. "I'll put one cannon ball at 18 inches, one at 24 at that unit... etc..." and then measure. If you missed, sucks to be you. Same thing when with crossbows, charging, and the likes. Granted you eventually became pretty good at knowing you distances. Personally, I REALLY miss that. I tried to implement it with my current gaming group, but nobody bought into it.
     
  9. Kcibrihp-Esurc
    Razordon

    Kcibrihp-Esurc Well-Known Member

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    Cannons are OP now, maybe if you rolled to hit they would be less so but even then...
     
  10. Screamer
    Temple Guard

    Screamer Member

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    I think they forgot to add the scatter die.

    Aim at a point, scatter+artillerydie to get a starting point.
    And then bounce artillerydie inch, just as now.

    Maybe even scatter artillerydie - BS, if it's supposed to be more accurate.
     
  11. Wise Kroxigor
    Skink

    Wise Kroxigor New Member

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    According to my calculations, an un-upgraded cannon has a 20% chance of killing a monster. Please correct me if there is an error in my math.

    1/6 chance for misfire
    1/6 chance for bounce misfire
    1/6 chance to roll a 1 to wound
    2/3 chance to roll a 4 or less.

    5/6 x 5/6 x 5/6 x 1/3 = 19.3% chance to instantly kill a monster.
    The cannon will deal damage 57.87% of the time, just will deal less than 5 wounds.

    Now I don't want to stomp on anyone's thoughts on cannons, I have no first hand experience, but it does seem like cannons will usually take 2 turns to kill a monster, especially factoring in terrain that a monster can hide behind potentially. In 2 turns, you are guaranteed 1 turn, so you had better use it to neutralize that cannon or get your monster into combat. Casting iceshard blizzard on the cannon also lowers it's odds to deal damage to half, so only 28% of the time it will deal damage. I'm sorry if this is off topic, I just want to understand why people hate cannons so much...
     
  12. Screamer
    Temple Guard

    Screamer Member

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    The chance is slightly higher, since you don't always need the bounce, if you score a direct hit. With a 50 mm base there's 1/3 of the first scatter that cause a direct hit. With a 75 mm base it's 1/2 or even 2/3 if you're at an angle.


    The reason to hate cannons is that they usually come in pairs or even 3. And a monster with 1-2 wounds left can easily go down from bow/handgun/blowpipe or spell or be killed in cc.
     
  13. lordkingcrow
    Temple Guard

    lordkingcrow Active Member

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    As much as the Dwarf player in me hates saying it... What about making a cannon do d3 wounds against any large target/monster and d6 against anything else? Seems more understandable that a cannon ball can instakill cavalry and infantry than a giant beast. This way the artillery armies have their precision, just not the overpowered bullet. If they want to fire two or three cannons to take down a large target, that seems an acceptable compromise.

    Then again... I've never shot a cannon at an elephant. Some field testing may be required...

    :chicken:
     
  14. hdctambien
    Terradon

    hdctambien Active Member

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    I like the idea of a cannon dealing d6 wounds to what ever it "hits" (after the first artillery die) and then dealing only 1 wound to anything caught in the bounce.

    Or alternatively, d6 wounds to everything but only S10 on the direct hit, and S5 or S6 against everything on the bounce.

    That makes it still pretty strong against monsters, but it has a little more randomness to it than "10 inches from the back of the model pretty much always hits." It keeps the same strength against normal 1-wound infantry, too.
     
  15. Screamer
    Temple Guard

    Screamer Member

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    Like that, it's a little bit like stonethrowers, higher power under the central hole.
    S10 d6 wounds with a direct hit (still about 50% chance against a large monster) and S5, no armoursave, d3 wounds after the bounce, stops on MI/MB/MC and monsters that it fails to kill. Kind of like a spear-chucka/ballista.
     
  16. NexS1
    Carnasaur

    NexS1 Well-Known Member

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    That's great! Seems more realistic to. Except I'd say the bounce would still need to be s6 or 7, but only d3 wounds for sure.
     
  17. DanBot
    Ripperdactil

    DanBot Member

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    My biggest complaints are S10 and D6 wounds. Sure cannons shouldn't be that accurate either, but you are telling me that basic cannons are S10? The strongest, most power, and the most multiple wounds in the game! I though S10 was reserved for the most powerful things in the warhammer world. Giant Demon's with flaming death swords. Magical feedback explosions, magical weapons being wielded by the most epic legendary magical lords. And of course cannon balls from cheap as dirt specials. I had a huge issue swallowing this AND explaining this to friends I taught to play. "What has the strongest hits in the game?" "Oh, you know, super powerful magic and cannon balls." "There is NOTHING more powerful than a cannon? -.-"
     
  18. Ondjage
    Razordon

    Ondjage Member

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    There is no difference between str 10 or str 7 versus any of our monsters... D6 multiple wounds however.. If it was D3+1 instead, our monsters could reliably survive a cannonball, and the average damage remains almost the same.

    My biggest problem with the cannons however, are that they hit BOTH monster and rider, when it should be randomized imo.
     
  19. SilverFaith
    Terradon

    SilverFaith Member

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    My biggest issue is how risk-free it is. The only other way to outright remove powerful and expensive models like that, is magic, which is both unreliable and has a potentially high risk. Being able to just point and click to kill is not only too powerful, it is also the most boring aspect of the entire game. Worse still, it robs all sense of achievement from it - Yeah, I won because my cannons insta-gibbed your most vital targets... meh.

    Cannons are broken right now. Even in 40k, S10 is so ridiculously rare that some armies outright don't have access to it, and when you do, it is often hideously ineffective. A S10 (NO multiwound, though double strength does insta-death the target) from Tau, for example, is on a platform with BS4. Unless you use support to up your chances, you only have 2/3 chance of hitting, and then the enemy is eligible for a cover-save to avoid the hit anyway. And you get, at most, 6 of these shots off during the entire game. So 4 hits, the enemy can get itself a 4+ cover save quite easily, which cuts that down to 2 hits, and then still only wounds on 2+... and if the enemy has t6, you still only did one wound.

    Come to think of it, maybe it should do d6 against t5 or less, but only d3 (or just 1) against t6 or higher. Not a lot of things have such a high toughness anyway, but it would make it far less of a insta-death machine of doom against EVERYTHING.

    Maybe require a BS check to even be allowed to shoot in the first place.
     
  20. Ixt
    Troglodon

    Ixt Well-Known Member

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    60% chance to auto-hit & wound with no armor saves is pretty remarkable, especially since it comes with such little risk.

    This is very poor reasoning which, again, highlights how grossly overpowered cannons are. If the monster has Fly, then this carries some weight.

    Also: if they go before you, you've effectively got just one turn, right? Enough time to put the monster on the tabke, move it, and take it right back off.

    Play against someone who fields 2-3 cannons a couple of times. It's point-and-click for them.
     

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