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7th Ed. Cold One Cavalry Tactica (Updated 9/2/09)

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Barotok, Jul 31, 2009.

  1. Barotok
    Terradon

    Barotok New Member

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    In this tactica I will cover the strengths and weaknesses of Cold One Cavalry, typical unit sizes and configurations, along with how to properly utilize their fighting prowress on the battlefield.


    Cold One Cavalry:

    Classified as heavy cavalry in the warhammer world, Cold One Cavalry are among the hardest hitting MV7 cavalry in the game.


    Upgrades:

    Unit Champion - Unit Champions for Cold One Cavalry are on the expensive side as far as champions go. Typically, the points spent to purchase one do not outweigh the advantage of the extra attack the model gains by becoming one. Despite this fact, they still are seen on the battlefield especially when a large unit of COC is fielded. Champions are generally only used to maximize the units damage out put across its frontage (since damage is the primary means of combat resolution) or for character protection should the unit be fielded with a Scar Veteran or Old Blood.

    Musician - Adding a musician to a unit of Cold One Cavalry is seen as not entirely necessary, although their potential utility can be greater than a unit champion, given the points cost. In small flanking units, a musician is not typically used. While in larger units, they offer the advantage of an extra combat resolution (or insuring the COC doesn't loose to infantry in the case of a tie), and of course the rally check bonus. With the high leadership of the Sarus riders, this typically isn't needed.

    Standard Bearer - Out of all the command models available to the Cold One Cavalry, the Standard Bearer is probably the most commonly seen. Due to the fact that the standard bearer may take a magic standard, this allows the unit access to a number of magic standards that give the unit extra threat, protection and utility for their role on the battlefield. While still expensive points wise, it is recommended to have the first upgrade to the unit be a standard bearer. Also, if there are available points, during army construction a magic standard is an excellent choice as it affords the unit a number of extra benefits outlined below.

    Cold One Cavalry Common Magic Standards:

    Sun Standard of Chotec - The Sun Standard of Chotec is invaluable in helping deliver the Cold One Cavalry into combat with minimal casualties from missile fire. For the purposes of shooting this banner allows COC to be much more difficult to hit and acts as a shooting deterent in most cases. As the unit gets closer to the source of the shooting it becomes increasingly more difficult to hit as well. The only downside to the banner is simply that it has no effect on template based weapons or cannons. Only weapons that use a ballistic skill can be prevented. Because of this, the usage of the standard is dependednt on wether or not the cost of the standard benefits the unit enough to justify taking it.

    Huanchi's Blessed Totem - This standard is an excellent choice for all-around lists who don't know wether or not they will be facing a significant amount of shooting or want to get an added threat of additional charge distance. It is also significantly cheaper than SSoC making it a solid choice and giving the Cold One Cavalry a potential 20" charge. The trick is that it is one use only which is a potential downside but does help in getting the extra distance to make it into combat. Any player who takes this standard should not count on it getting them into combat because not enough inches can be rolled thereby failing the charge as normal. It's use also must be declared with the charge and adds another random element to the units movement. Coupled with Stupidity this proves too unreliable for some serious players who will steer clear of the this totem or the COC altogether.

    Jaguar Standard - The Jaguar Standard has a possibility of being a viable banner for Cold One Cavalry although slower infantry units seem to benefit much more from it. The extra distance in pursuing means that even cavalry have a decent shot at being run down. Once again, using this banner elsewhere can provide greater benefit.

    War Banner - We can't forget about the ever so popular War Banner. This is a great generic, take-all-comers, banner because its additional SCR allows large units of Cold One Cavalry to get a much needed break test for the enemy. Even smaller units can benefit from it provided that it isn't already in use somewhere else in the army.



    Unit Strengths:

    Charging - Because of the way Cold One Cavalry are equipped as a unit, their primary advantage is on the charge. The extra strength afforded them on the turn they charge means that it is always better to charge than to be charged. With their multiple attacks across a relatively small frontage, this can produce devastating casualties which can win combats outright even when charging directly into the front of some enemy infantry. Their movement rate is also comparable to similar units in its class which affords them solid manueuverabilty on the charge and providing the longest range charge threat in the LM army (second only to terradons).

    Damage/Frontage - Cold One Cavalry fight with the ferocity seen in ranked units of Sarus with the added benefit of the Cold One they are riding's savage attacks. A unit of six COC with a champion produces 13 attacks at STR 5 (on the charge) coupled with 6 additional attacks at STR 4 from the Cold Ones. What the riders don't kill on the charge, the Cold Ones will. There are not many cavalry units in the warhammer world that can provide this much potential damage on the charge. I would contend though that while the Sarus riders are indeed very powerful, it's the Cold Ones that really provide the benefit. Typical mounts strike at WS3 and STR3. The extra strength form the Cold Ones is usually what tips the scales in the favor of the COC.

    Psychology - Ferocious raptor like beings that are ridden by more ferocious raptor like beings have a tendancy to cause fear in most troops. With the advantage of being immune to fear themselves, Cold One Cavalry can maximize this advantage against low leadership troop types and armies. When properly utilized, this alone can have devastating effects. In most cases, charge targets that are already out numbered by the COC are not worth charging, as the unit's strength can be better maximized by hitter bigger and tougher targets.

    Maneuverability - Smaller units of Cold One Cavalry have the ability to maneuver just as well as any other heavy cavalry putting them on par with the best in most cases. As compared to the rest of the LM army, these riders are amoungst the fastest troops the Lizardmen have to offer. While skinks, Kroxigors and Stegadons are very close bringing the average maneuverabilty of LM troops way up, COC are only second to terradons in the speed department. This gives them slightly more protection from shooting, the ability to charge from further away and the ability to wheel just a little more to squeeze into or out of a tight space.

    Thick Skinned - Cold One Cavalry enjoy an additional +1 to their armor save for being mounted on the thick skinned Cold Ones. This puts increases their survivability and cements their position in the heavy cavalry category.


    Unit Weaknesses:

    Stupidity - This is typically the biggest single concern associated with Cold One Cavalry. The Cold Ones themselves have a tendancy (10.5% chance) to become inexplicably confused and befuddled cause them to wander forward 3.5" and do nothing usefull for a turn. Sarus leadership helps keep this to a minimum (an average of one failure over the course of about 1.5 games) any LM player who has played for any amount of time will have a story when the Cold Ones lost the game because they forgot where they were or what they were doing. One tactic used, especially when using COC as a flanker is to get the unit within 3" of its intended charge target insuring a charge wether or not the Stupidity test is passed or failed.

    Points Cost - The large sum of points that every Cold One Cavalry model is worth makes them a tantalizing target for destruction from an enemy's perspective. Any LM army that fields these units exposes a weak spot during the shooting phase until the COC are delivered into combat. Usually they need to be screened or avoid certain areas of the table in order to remain survivable and function correctly. The biggest problem is that a single wound to the unit dramatically reduces its combat prowress and also is a large loss in points to the LM player.

    Vulerability to High Strength Shooting - Because of their high points cost, Cold One Cavalry are frequently targeted by an enemy's high strength shooting, should they field any. Bolt throwers through the flank can be particularly painful as despite their armor save, an expensive unit can be wiped out with one or two shots. COC seem to survive longer when they are supported by the appropriate units who in turn can effectively reduce or eliminate these threats. Terradons work very well in tandem with COC to eliminate sources of shooting that may be targetting your heavy cavalry.



    Typical Unit Builds:

    Bare Bones - Five Cold One Cavalry is actually quite effective and works very well in smaller games. They also can serve as a small fast flanking unit in larger games where they can avoid shooting. While still very effective, this unit doesn't have all of the bells and whistles that the larger more expensive units have. If you're unsure of how to play COC correctly, I would recommend using a unit like this to learn how to effectively utilize them. This will minimize loss from points should make an error.

    Bare Bones with Standard - Although not as common as some of the other builds, running 5 Cold One Cavalry eqiupped with a magic standard (typically Huanchi's) can also be found. These units are more expensive than a regular bare bones unit, but benefit from having what ever benefit the standard confers. Compared to other COC builds, this unit puts more points into a small unit where survivability can come into question. Sometime this build sees a sarus character join it as well.

    Extra Riders - This type of unit is usually the most popular in larger games where the general has more points to invest. The size is increased by one to two riders to accomplish one of two purposes. First the extra riders can be placed in the back rank and used to 'soak' shooting. This allows the COC to get to its target under fire without falling below an effective unit size to accomplish its task. The second reason is to expand the frontage from five riders wide, to six riders. This makes the unit more difficult to manuever but does provide more attacks across a wider frontage to maximize damage output. Newer players should avoid expanding frontage until they've mastered maneuvering the COC properly. I struggle to understand expanding frontage with out investing in command models or adding a character. Expanding frontage makes it more difficult to take a flank but increases your effectiveness of a frontal charge against infantry. It seems more logical to only to expand frontage with a large unit that has command whose purpose is to challenge infantry with a direct frontal charge.

    Full Strength - This is the most expensive type of Cold One Cavalry unit typically seen. It uses 6-8 riders and carrys a full set of command models. A magic standard is usually carried for the unit (typically SSC or HBT depending on the situation) and sometimes a dangerous Scar Veteran adds even more threat to the unit. This type of COC represents a very significant points investment and is sure to draw enemy fire quickly. If the enemy does not rely on shooting, count on facing serious opposition and difficulty in attempting to hit your intended target for this crushing monster, as a skilled player will easily recognize the damage potential and threat the unit represents. One can expect to find at least one of these types of units in a Kroq'Gar army while there appearance elsewhere is somewhat more uncommon depending on the player preference. While large units of COC are flexible enough to soak a bit of shooting or expand their frontage to maximize attacks, their targets are generally large dangerous enemy infantry blocks. A large unit slices through these with ease and if given the opportunity can roll an enemy flank on its own. Newer LM generals may find it easier to reduce the points cost of the unit when learning to use COC, but a large unit will often times offer the the newer player a chance to get them into close combat to witness the devastating effects despite any mistakes in movement or deployement.

    Other Types & Builds - Admittedly there are other ways to configure a unit of Cold One Cavalry, if you feel that a popular one has been overlooked, post here and I'll consider adding it. Including logical reasons for your decisions and what tactical role the unit serves on the battlefield will greatly increase the chances of it going into the tactica.



    Example Damage Potential:
    Below is a chart which exhibits the damage potential of a unit of Cold One Cavalry along with the addition of a Sarus Scar Veteran.

    5 Cold One Cavalry
    Full Command
    (225)

    Sarus Scar Veteran
    Scimitar of the Sun Resplendent
    (163)

    ColdOneAttacks.jpg
    (thanks to snowywlf)




    More to come! I am in the process of typing this at work and will add more soon.

    1) Integrating characters into your units


    Change Log:
    8/3/09 - Updated Stupidity percentages, Added damage chart. (snowywlf)
    8/6/09 - Added new section for snow's damage chart including the relevant information. Thanks to stumpyfjord for catching my error.
    9/2/09 - Corrected error in stupidity move distance. 3" to 3.5" Made additional notes to the HBT relavant to the current discussion in the thread.

    Contributors:
    snowywlf
    stumpyfjord
     
  2. snowywlf
    Cold One

    snowywlf New Member

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  3. Cuauhtémoc
    Saurus

    Cuauhtémoc New Member

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    Re: Cold One Cavalry Tactica

    Wow! Thats sure is helpful!
    Cant wait for the next part, COC are some of my favorites.
     
  4. Barotok
    Terradon

    Barotok New Member

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    Re: Cold One Cavalry Tactica (Updated 8/3/09)

    Thanks for the kind words folks.

    Snow, I'll be adding those pictures sometime tonight thanks for offering.

    You can expect this to be finished tonight. Hopefully it gets a spot in the table of contents that Stewart is doing.
     
  5. strewart
    OldBlood

    strewart Well-Known Member

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    Re: Cold One Cavalry Tactica (Updated 8/3/09)

    Added to the Index. ;)

    You've covered everything I can think of for now. My only comment would be maybe the analysis of the magic banners should go in a seperate one to do with magic items. For now, leave it as it is since a magic item thread doesn't exist yet, but we'll think about it later.
     
  6. Barotok
    Terradon

    Barotok New Member

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    Re: Cold One Cavalry Tactica (Updated 8/3/09)

    I changed the Magic Standard Analysis to an analysis of the most commonly used standards for Cold One Cavalry. Hope that is a little better, but if you feel it should be kept for the ME Tactica I can remove it, no problem.
     
  7. strewart
    OldBlood

    strewart Well-Known Member

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    Re: Cold One Cavalry Tactica (Updated 8/3/09)

    Yeah if it is geared toward what they can do for cold ones and which are best rather than an all round thing then it is probably useful here. I guess there is always going to be some overlap between the threads, but that is ok.
     
  8. thesecondman
    Temple Guard

    thesecondman New Member

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    Re: Cold One Cavalry Tactica (Updated 8/3/09)

    Here's a bit of "tactica". Don't take Saurus cavalry. They're crap. They cost too many points and they are stupid. Stupidity is really, really bad. Over the course of, say, a 6 game tournament, they will fail an important and possibly vital stupidity test in at least one of those games. Unreliability is just bad. Especially on a hard hitting, expensive and fast unit that you will look to time and time again to crank some important stuff. Yes, they are cold blooded, making the test harder to fail. Yes, they CAN charge and wtf-steamroll a unit. YES, they can randomly lumber forward, screwing up your battle line, other units line of sight and movement tunnels, get charged in the flank, break, and lead an opponent's unit into a place that you had not planned or desired them to be in, or go behind the line of sight of a wall or into a forest and take 4 turns to return to the actual battle.

    It can, and will happen. Not much, mabye not at important times, but it will. I would much rather leave the only really prominent RnG to the Cupped Hands 2+ roll, and other Slann miscasts.
     
  9. Quillum
    Saurus

    Quillum New Member

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    Re: Cold One Cavalry Tactica (Updated 8/3/09)

    Sounds like you've had some terrible luck with the Cavalry. I have to say I've experienced most, if not all of that, but that's because I'm still learning how to utilize them properly, so I'm not going to give up on them.

    Also, just to let you know, the entire game is kind of based off RnG (if I'm thinking of the right term)...because you could have everything stacked in your favor, yet wiff horribly, while your opponent manages some amazing dice rolls themselves and steamroll your "Unkillable" unit. Doesn't happen often, but after all, its random, based on the dice rolls :p
     
  10. Barotok
    Terradon

    Barotok New Member

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    Re: Cold One Cavalry Tactica (Updated 8/3/09)

    Quillum, I think that he's (thesecondman) talking about the unit being unreliable from a tournament perspective. This frequently causes players to make sure their list is devoid of units that they could potentially 'loose control of' in the movment phase due to frenzy, stupidity or some other rule.



    thesecondman, while I can understand your opinion, your method of delivery insinuates that my work on the "tactica" as you so call it isn't usefull or needed. I can understand making a post saying that you don't use Cold One Cavalry in your games because you are obviously terrified of their disadvantages, however, taking a sarcastic tone with someone else's analysis is offensive and not appreciated. If you don't like them (COC), say you don't like them and leave it at that. Otherwise keep your sarcastic and negative comments to yourself.

    Thanks

    *edit* Formatting
     
  11. Quillum
    Saurus

    Quillum New Member

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    Re: Cold One Cavalry Tactica (Updated 8/5/09)

    Ah, didn't realize that...but then again I don't play in tournaments. In any case, back to the corner with me.
     
  12. stumpyfjord
    Skink

    stumpyfjord New Member

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    Re: Cold One Cavalry Tactica (Updated 8/5/09)

    I might be being extra dense this afternoon but I don't understand the chart. Assuming that you are talking about the proposed 6 wide front w/ champion and assuming that the COR are charging. You would only get on average 7.22 wounds against WS 3, Tough 2, AS 5+ opponents. The table lists 12.8.

    Other than that, I would argue that they are not truly a hammer against tough troops. In my experience, which is somewhat limited, their WS 4 and Str 5 isn't enough to punch through elite blocks of troops. They can and will bust apart what I would consider non-elites.

    Hope that is a helpful little review. Thank you for taking the time to help educate us.
     
  13. Corbechev
    Saurus

    Corbechev New Member

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    Re: Cold One Cavalry Tactica (Updated 8/5/09)

    I had some horrible luck with my CoC over the past weekend, we had a 4 game tournament and I was running two bare bones units of 5.

    I failed at least a test per game, and in total 10 stupidity tests.

    In game 1, both units failed their stupidity test on turn 1, and one of them failed on turn 2. They still came around in time for a pivotal dual charge into a graveguard flank.

    In game 3... ugg.. I failed both tests on turn 1 again.. Then on turn 2 I failed again on one of the units, then the opposing DE player caused a panic check in the unit, which I failed, and ran to the edge of the table, then on my chance to rally them I failed again... and ran off the board..

    However... they were still very pivotal in all my games, and I wouldn't have done as well as I did had I not had them..

    My question though, is stupidity half your movement rounded down or rounded up?! I know for the purposes of a lot of things, i.e. victory points, it is rounded up..
     
  14. Barotok
    Terradon

    Barotok New Member

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    Re: Cold One Cavalry Tactica (Updated 8/5/09)

    Looked into your comment there stumpyfjord and I don't think you'll be winning denseness awards. You're right. I had to reference the original thread in which the chart was shown to realize that the chart reflects 5 COC full command, + Sarus SV character. I will clarify this in the FAQ. Thank you for pointing it out!

    Corbechev, I've had situations where my COC failed a check and ran off the board. But never ever ever had them fail stupidity 2x in a row. Thats simply amazing considering there is ~10% chance to fail a check, given the sarus leadership. What I found interesting is that you mentioned they still played a huge part in the battle.

    As far as your question is concerned about rounding the distance moved forward. The rulebook says "half its normal move". You don't need to round up or down at this point. By deductive reasoning, 1/2 the COC normal move is 3.5 inches, so thats how far they wander forward. This can be easily measured as well, which is probably why GW doesn't include anything about rounding.
     
  15. thesecondman
    Temple Guard

    thesecondman New Member

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    Re: Cold One Cavalry Tactica (Updated 8/6/09)

    Negative, its not a flame. You done some good work here on this post, its just that I think Saurus Cavalry are mad crutch, and yes, crap. I wasn't being sarcastic. I can get why you might get pseudo-offended, and im sorry for that. Making army lists correctly is still "tactica".

    Both my posts are opinion and experience based. Feel free to ignore.

    Additional* - Yes, warhammer is full of RnG. Imho reducing the RnG nature of your army and play style is a sure-fire way to improve your results.

    Additonal** Corbechev 's post sounds like a play by play of one of the tournaments I played in a while back, using CoC. Bl bro, it happens.
     
  16. Barotok
    Terradon

    Barotok New Member

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    Re: Cold One Cavalry Tactica (Updated 8/6/09)

    Solid advice that can't be ignored if you plan on serious play in tournaments. I couldn't agree more.


    thesecondman, I can appreciate your opinions when you state them as such. I'm sure you know you're not the only one that feels that way as well. You original post did come off as if it was aimed at the tactica itself. It is nice to know that you weren't targeting the tactica itself. Thank you for sharing your opinions as well. I believe that it's good to get a wide range of opinions and thoughts, especially in a tactica.
     
  17. Corbechev
    Saurus

    Corbechev New Member

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    Re: Cold One Cavalry Tactica (Updated 8/5/09)

    Good point, one tends to forget about half inches with movement, it tends to be round numbers and the half movement never comes up.
     
  18. Elmquasmash
    Razordon

    Elmquasmash New Member

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    Re: Cold One Cavalry Tactica (Updated 8/6/09)

    Well, personally i love the idea of CoCavs.. I stopped playing lizzies right before we got 'em and i've been waiting for the chance to utilize them :) I think that stupidity, while it can be an obstacle, can be dealt with. If you position your cold ones each turn planning on them failing the stupidity test the next turn you can minimize the poor results while you may not be optimizing your offensive results.. But just as Corbechev stated, they will have their uses ;)
     
  19. DonkeyHotep
    Temple Guard

    DonkeyHotep New Member

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    Re: Cold One Cavalry Tactica (Updated 8/6/09)

    The last tournament I went into the cavalry were used in funky ways. In my second game, they were used as a screen against Vilitch the cursling, and were shot with 2d6 str 11 hits from the lor of Tzeentch. (which kills the entire unit instantly, no save) This was a great use of them, as they were threatening enough for it to be considered worth casting, but also in the way of the Toad. I also love using cavalry for starting cavalry standoffs. You just move to about 20-22 inches away from someone, and then do nothing. Their cavalry can't charge you, and if they move into this rather commanding area then.... you charge and kill them. Being used as slanntas little helpers gives them greater leadership to avoid stupidity, and being in a daft position means that if they move up 3 inches.... well who cares they weren't gonna move anyway.

    The problem then becomes stupidity on the turn that they intend to charge, which only toad can help with.

    I like them because they do a similar job to the stegadon, but aren't hugely afraid of cannons, and I face a lot of cannons.
     
  20. strewart
    OldBlood

    strewart Well-Known Member

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    Re: Cold One Cavalry Tactica (Updated 8/5/09)

    Slightly off topic but those who were into warhammer in 4th and 5th edition might remember that points values used to come in halves as well, you could have a model worth 10.5 points.

    The reason other stats are rounded is because they are based on tables, what is WS 2.5 going to do? How do you work out 3.5 attacks? You can't. Half an inch, as Barotok said, is pretty easy to measure.
     

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