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8th Ed. Fighting those rats

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by sombrastewart, Apr 29, 2015.

  1. sombrastewart
    Skink

    sombrastewart New Member

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    So, one of the folks in my local group is a fastidious Skaven player. I hate those little rat bastards. It seems like they have a special rule for everything, and they've got to be someone's favorite at GW to keep getting new stuff.

    Ok, bitterness aside, she's taken to fielding an annoying array with an End Times giant verminlord, a doomwheel, warp lightning cannons and a propensity for the Dreaded 13th.

    I've been trying to figure out some guidelines to build with. Here's what I've come up with.

    Using as many skinks as possible to get my core filled. I'm not a big fan of the skink cloud, but I think it's going to be necessary. At the moment, I have 45 skink models, so I might need more.

    Field the Slann in a big enough group of Temple Guard that it (probably) won't get completely wiped by an irresistible casting of 13th. I'm thinking around 20, with Lore of Light or WD on the Slann, with Becalming Cogitation, Harmonic Convergence, maybe Soul of Stone and Focus of Mystery.

    Rippers for the cannons, and a skink priest with a feather cloak for mobile casting. Maybe a cowboy with Cold Ones to try and sweep chaff.

    I'm debating adding Tenhenaun for more casting and Skaven hatred, but not sold on it.

    What do you guys think? Am I missing something?
     
  2. Koranot
    Skink

    Koranot Member

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    My friend is a skaven player, so I face them regularly. He does not own a vermin lord (yet), so I can not comment on that, but I guess skinks, ancient stegadons with sharpened horns or an oldblood would do the deal.

    Against skaven I would not recommend using an only-skink core.
    First, if your opponent has the storm banner (which is likely), skinks and flying units become nearly useless. I once had the damn thing last for 4 full turns.
    Second, nothing breaks those skaven slave blocks as fast as big unit of saurus. I always use a block of 30 to 35 together with my temple guard and they often manage to break those annoying blocks of 50 slaves in two rounds of combat.

    In my experience the key to the victory against skaven is to remove the general, so I normally try to hit the unit with the screaming bell with my temple guard and kill the grey seer.

    Considering the 13th, I would just take a scroll, the cube and hope that your opponent does not roll irrisistable force.
     
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  3. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    If you're playing End Times rules, then the WD Slann will give you all the BRB spells. Focus of Mystery is arguably even better with re-rolls to cast, and switching out spells for entire lores.

    I'm not a big fan of Tehenhauin. Sure if you wish to list tailor to Skaven then you can make use of his special rule, but at the end of the day they're still only skink attacks.

    Since Skaven are known for have large units of models, Salamanders may come in handy.
     
  4. sombrastewart
    Skink

    sombrastewart New Member

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    Trust me, I've abused the fire out of the End Times WD Slann. It's definitely one of my favorite things in the game.

    I have a salamander, it's definitely use him. He has a bad habit of eating all his handlers in one go, but I'd use him.
     
  5. Agrem
    Kroxigor

    Agrem Active Member

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    Yes, salamanders are one of the biggest keys to break the skaven army. Other than those I find myself usually really struggling against the rats.
    I think against them is the one exception where the saurus warriors could outshine the skirmishers. (yes, you heard right :D) My reasoning for this is that skinks, if not fielded in big blocks, have really hard time against the wall of slaves, clan rats and stormvermin. They just don't have the power to take them down and will be ground down before the rats are doen. Only just one unit of temple guard is not usually enough. If you are tailoring your army against the skaven I would suggest bringing some saurus warriors along.

    As my (limited) experience from tournaments and other games the skaven usually give me the most trouble of all, just because there are just so darn lot of them. I have not fought agains the new verminlords but on paper they don't actually look that tough. They should go down almost the same as every other monster dies on the poison shots.

    Good luck!

    BR
    Agrem
     
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  6. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    I don't know the rules of the new vermin lords, but they come with a ridiculous strenght? If not then a single Oldblood with Armour of Destiny, Dawnstone , great weapon, Cold One and The Other Tricker Shard should do the trick. Immune to thunderstomps and can take 55 S6 attacks at WS7 or more. 75 at WS6 or less.

    I'm guessing a vermin lord rely on a 5+ ward or so and .. T6? He can't hide in a unit.

    I agree with others about saurus warriors.They are far superior to slaves. Just don't get hit too much by the cannon =)
     
  7. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    If you only have one, are you allowed to proxy? I'd field at least 2. In either case, buying an extra handler (snack) is a good idea, that way he can't eat all his handlers in one go.
     
  8. sombrastewart
    Skink

    sombrastewart New Member

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    Yeah, I just haven't added a handler since I got the guy. Salamanders have been hard to find lately.

    The biggest concern with the verminlord is it's a 50/50 if she'll go with the straight up verminlord or Skreech Verminking, and that gets really dicey since he can swap on the Doomglaive (d3 multiple wounds) or the Plaguereaper (ASF).

    That's why I'm spending so much time pondering on it, it's definitely a new wrinkle.

    I appreciate the feedback, guys.
     
  9. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    My experience versus Skaven is limited so take this with a grain of salt.

    In my opinion, 20 Temple Guard is the bare minimum for a 2500 point game all-comers list with Light or Life. Any other Slann build needs a few more than 20. Taking a Lore without defense like Death or Undeath? Add a few more. Going light on regular Saurus Warriors? Add a few more. I don't think you can have too many Temple Guard until you hit 32.

    Fielding your Temple Guard 6 wide will give you a 150 frontage. A five wide tarpit of Skaven has a 100 mm frontage. That's 16 attacks not counting the Slann and unit champion, Depending on your rules interpretation at least 12 of the attacks will have PF. That's two more attacks on average. Even if it's not a tarpit, you probably want a wide frontage against Storm Vermin since the TG still have (slightly) better stats and Stubborn. More often that not your TG should have a more favorable set up of augments/hexes than the enemy.

    You should be able to chew through whatever the other side has. I don't think Temple Guard should deploy five-wide against non-elite targets. You don't really need the Steadfast though if it's not inconvenient you can/should go five wide against lone Skaven monsters for the possibility of an extra rank and thus extra CR point.
     
  10. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    Slightly better stats? It's WS4, S4, T3, 1A heavy armour vs WS4, S5, T5, 2A and a 4+ save.

    Difference is that they'll wound on 4+ and we can save on 5+, comparably we wound on 2+ and they can't save anything.

    Even IF they go full horde mode well out wound them by doing 8 wounds straight compared to their 5 wounds. The biggest issue is of course that is losing 5 models is quite a lot. But that's also assuming they went horde and all model are able to attack :p

    Unless of course you were being sarcastic. :D
     
  11. latedave
    Skink

    latedave New Member

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    Personally I rather like the Skink Cohort against Skaven, quick to fire means you don't care all that much about taking the charge and model for model you're reasonably close. 40 in horde formation with poison is fine, For the heavy lifting I'd take the following:

    40 Saurus, horde formation
    5 Cold Ones - for rank breaking, Skaven rely heavily on rank for both combat and leadership, Scar Vet is nice with sword of strife for extra attacks. You won't have a problem killing them.
    As everyone else has said, Sallies are very, very good against Skaven.
    Skink Chief on a Ripper with the Egg is pretty good, Skaven Gutter Runners are expensive but very mobile, you should make your points back and then be in a position to fly into the back lines and force ld checks for marching.
    Old Blood with armour of destiny and piranha blade for the vermin lord. I dislike the Dawnstone combo because you're taking a hefty hit on an armour save even with 1+. D3 wounds however allows you the potential of taking it out in one round and you can strike at initiative. Alternatively Dawnstone/ Blade/ Potion of speed to ensure you make it into combat and just hope you roll well!

    This won't leave you a lot of points left unfortunately but barebones Slann, priest with scroll and a small unit of Temple Guard are still doable.

    You need to hit the unit in the flank for the screaming bell or you'll be in for a very bad time.
     
  12. DrMad
    Skink

    DrMad Member

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    To disrupt ranks you have to have at least 2 ranks of five models in flank or rear at the end of the combat (BRB p52).
     
  13. Koranot
    Skink

    Koranot Member

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    I would not rely on flying units againts skaven, since the storm banner might ruin your day.
     
  14. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Agreed that banner is bad news. It's extremely effective and efficiently priced, so there is a good chance that you may come across it.
     
  15. protector
    Temple Guard

    protector Active Member

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    In my experience which has been quite often against the small vermin I have found the following to always be incredibly useful

    1) If you bring a slann put him in a unit of cohorts with krox or straight up krox, that way he will never succumb to the dreaded 13th, it will also highly devalue the temple guard unit as a target and probably force him to prioritize spells differently. Also if you can out deploy him and he sets up characters first that means he chooses spells before your slann gets put into a non-viable unit for 13th which renders that spell much less potent.

    2) Saurus calvary are golden, units of 5-8 are highly mobile, throw out a ton of very damaging attacks and have a high AS against most Skaven. They can also range on flanks and charge things like doomwheels to get them out early in the game, if deployed in one rank WLC don't damage them very much either.

    3) Saurus warriors, lots of them. Now this is usually my go to answer for most things we face, I'm of the opinion that if used right saurus warriors are the 2nd best infantry in the game. But it is also obvious that many others also believe they work well against Skaven.
     
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  16. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Second best infantry unit or second best core infantry unit? Either way I'd have to disagree, but I'm curious.
     
  17. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    That comes off as unlikely. From the top of my head there is both savage big uns and witch elfs. I'd regard storm vermins as equals because they'll likely outgrind us due to price. Then there's the whole warriors of chaos issue. <.<
     
  18. protector
    Temple Guard

    protector Active Member

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    Yes I believe saurus warriors are better than witch elves and savage orc big uns, I don't think they will win in a straight up fight against either unit but I believe they have 1) a much higher rate of game survivability and 2) a much more dependable performance rate and 3) no requirements to buff/protect for great performance.

    1) That means that if I field saurus against any army that has a lot of ranged attacks I know for a fact that they are going to weather the damage and still reach combat in a position to still cause a lot of damage.

    2) It is also very important for me to be able to rely on a unit to perform a certain way throughout the entire game. Against witch elves or savage orcs a single OB or other hard to kill character will be able to take frenzy away from the unit for the rest of the game, and roll the numbers of un-frenzied witch elves and savage orcs against saurus and it turns out much more favorable. Add in the fact that if you can get past the choppas rule and hit the savage orcs on the 2nd turn of combat with anything they are much easier to deal with and saurus will outperform them all day long.

    3) I also find that building an army where each part is not dependant on others works far better than having to rely on synergy (I do love synergy but when blood starts to flow I don't want to have that be my winning strategy). So if I don't get HoG off, or if I don't get a key flank charge or put a character with a key magic item in the unit will it still perform very well? With saurus the answer is yes and at almost every unit size, the main problem I see from others using saurus is that they don't use enough of them, if you field one unit of 24 and use that unit to go after the enemies elite units that cost way more you are going to lose all day. I think a lot of people want saurus to be elite fighters and use them as such, instead they are awesome core that crush most other core and a lot of other special/rare. I use them as two large blocks or 1 large block and 2 small blocks most games, my opponents know that the big block isn't going to run from most anything and if I get a flank charge with my smaller blocks it is going to go badly for him, the problem for most opponents is if I use saurus in small units he can't shoot them away like skinks or elf elites so my saurus will be hitting flank charges mid and late game, all for 120 points per unit. If I'm fighting a highly mobile army then I just deploy them 12 wide to crumple up a flank, again shooting just isn't effective against saurus, the only kind that can make a difference has higher value targets or is costed well over saurus.

    Point for point I believe saurus to be the 2nd best infantry in the game.

    I don't see stormvermin as being better, although I think they are close, the only issue I have is I really like a 4+ AS over 5+ and in combat a parry save has been key in so many battles. Throw in the ability for PF to make a huge difference and cold blooded ld8 and I feel saurus to still be superior, being able to safely deploy them outside a Ld bubble is huge to winning a deployment. But as you can see I am not saying saurus will win a straight up fight against every other infantry, but that from my experience of well over a hundred battles with saurus and almost that many with other armies I would choose saurus over almost any other infantry.
     
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  19. Koranot
    Skink

    Koranot Member

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    I agree that saurus are better than most people say. They beat equal points of witch elves (not a witch star) by quite some margin and are far more reliable. Savage orc big uns however are possible the worst matchup for saurus. They have +1 WS, S, A and I compared to saurus, which normally leads to a massacer. Even if they lost frenzy and the choppa bonus they should beat saurus due to their higher WS and I, especially if they have a 5+ ward. On the other hand they are one of the most unreliable units in the game and are more prone to S 3 shooting than saurus.
     
  20. Lawot
    Kroxigor

    Lawot Active Member

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    Saurus debates aside, here are my issues with the rats:
    Between the Doomwheel, the HPA, the Dreaded 13th, the Doomrocket and the Warp Lightning Cannon, he's got everything he needs to deal with monsters, skirmishers, infantry blocks and cowboys. On top of that, my regular Skaven opponent has learned from my redirecting game, and now fields 2-4 Warlock Engineers and 2-4 rat darts for that purpose. He and my O&G opponent have both learned the joys of Random Movement in neutering my Skinks, so I'd love to hear any thoughts on how to deal with that.

    Here's what I've learned, though:
    1) My best games against this opponent have been Skink-heavy lists. The Banner sucks, but with a list like that, I can avoid him until it wears off, and then resume my shooting/flying. Rippers, though, need to be kept out of everyone else's way, in case he decides to activate the Banner and pin them there.
    2) Combat should be our friend, but their redirectors can keep our Saurus at bay while they shoot and magic us to pieces. I need to find a way to get my Saurus into combat with him.
    3) A Doomwheel charging into a big block would be a welcome sight. A Doomwheel driving around all game, Zapping things every turn, is the real nightmare. I need to be able to pin it and destroy it.
    4) Wandering Deliberations offers plenty to do harm to the Doomwheel and Hell Pit Abomination, as well as clearing some chaff, but needs to be paired with a combat list, because it won't win a shoot-out without horde-killers.
    5) If you're not going to do WD, I think Fire and Heavens are our best friends. Pick one of those, or take High and switch into one of them. Heavens does the S6 long-range hits needed to put the hurt on Doomwheels and HPA's, plus Comet can break up a slave/Grey Seer/WLC castle. Fire clears chaff and hordes alike.

    That's what I'm working on, in the times when I brood on my defeats and dream of new ways to grasp victory. I'd love to hear more thoughts on what enemy tactics you've seen, and how you take on this enemy.
     

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