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AoS Firelance - is it actually any good?

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by WarbossLincoln, Oct 26, 2018.

  1. WarbossLincoln
    Skink

    WarbossLincoln New Member

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    I tried out a firelance the other day and I'm not convinced that it's actually worth the 150 points.

    The +3 charge is nice but it requires you to stack up on the scar vet. I actually did way better using the scar vet to teleport and assassinate something.

    The mortal wounds are just as unreliable as the lance ones. The lance ones are a nice to have because it comes with the weapon, this we're paying 150 points for.

    This was the list I ran, 1500 points

    Firelance
    Scar Vet on Cold One - Sword of Judgement(6's to hit do d6 mortals to monsters and heroes)
    3 units 5x knights

    Skink Starpriest - General, Master of Star Rituals
    Oldblood on Carnosaur - Doppelganger Cloak(can't attack him in melee until he attacks)

    40 Skinks - Boltspitter and Club
    2 units 5x chameleon skinks
    Troglodon

    The firelance battalion didn't really do anything. 1 Knight squad charged in and died to something, 1 squad got mortal wounded to 1 model who I then hid to teleport on an objective if needed, the other knight squad held its own vs a couple ok in melee characters. Overall exactly what I would expect from knights, a decent front line unit, nothing special. Spending the 150 points on firelance seemed wasted. It's not like the other main battleline battalion Sunclaw where I'm giving rend to a 40 man blob of warriors. That could actually do some damage, and it's part of a Fangs of Sotek.

    The scar vet on cold one was awesome, but not because of the firelance. I teleported him, charged a treelord ancient and with the old blood's command ability spammed 3 times he got to make 18 attacks doing d6 mortals on a 6 to hit. That wiped the treelord in 1 go and then the scar vet spend the rest of the game burning down a dryad mob with help from the oldblood/carnosaur.

    I'm thinking for that list I'm going to drop 1 knight squad and the firelance, freeing up 240 points for something, not sure what yet.

    The 40 skinks were great, the 10 chameleon skinks were really good too. they appeared on objectives for me, 1 died horrible, the other unit got picked up and used to claim another objective next turn
     
  2. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning Staff Member

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    The Firelance was considered mediocre when its cost was 60 points. Right now I'd say it isn't worth it most of the time.
    Not really bad (I did win a few games with it, against Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz) but meh.

    However as part of a Dracothions Tail I'd say it is worth it.
     
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  3. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    Meh, it's main use is that you now have a basicly guaranteed charge with extra mortal wounds & 1 free command point to use on your scar-vets command to make that charge even more powerfull. It synergizes increadibly well with itself. Only issue is that it isn't very visible. Charging only really happens once or twice in a game, the mortal wounds are unreliable and the 1 command ability is also not exactly the most visible of thingsā€¦ Which is far less visible than the sunclaw with it's -1 rend and + 1 bite attack which are going to be visible in nearly every combat phase.

    It's decent, but the mortal wound aspect of Knights and the starhost needs to be changed before it'l actually feel that way.
     
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  4. LizardWizard
    Carnasaur

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    The Firelance Starhost is honestly just a tax for the Dracothion's Tail battalion.
     
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  5. Tokek
    Chameleon Skink

    Tokek Well-Known Member

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    Things like the treelord ancient are exactly what the Firelance is rather bad at dealing with; you do need other tools in your list to deal with anything that can shrug off high volumes of non-rending attacks.

    The bonus mortal wounds look nice when you read them but they hardly ever matter in my experience. If you are in a desperate situation they might give you some glimmer of hope that lucky rolls will rescue you but they are not a thing to be relied upon or to plan a strategy around.

    As for the Firelance in general I would say that its main benefits come when you are teleporting or summoning your units into position, this is when the +3" transforms your chances of making that charge and getting the drop on your opponent. For that reason alone i would say it looks a lot stronger to me when you combine it with the Dracothion's Tail which gives you the ability to hold your Knights and Scar Vet off-table until you want to drop them in to strike; plus it has a Slann who should almost always take Great Rememberer in this setup because you can take such good advantage of the teleports.

    The two battalions together cost 230 which is definitely not cheap but you do get a lot for it. In addition to having a one-drop army you get an additional 2CP (gold-dust for the Scar-Vet / Knight combo), more relics and the ability to hold key units in reserve some of which can still pretty reliably get stuck in the moment they arrive on the table. The battalions working together give you amazing flexibility in where and when you attack, flexibility which makes it very difficult for your opponent to position to counter you. There are ways to get more outright damage output in your lists but if you are more concerned with taking control of where and when you deliver damage then it is a set of battalions which suit that playstyle.

    Firelance on its own could work decently with a Great Rememberer Slann but I do feel it is a lot more powerful if you also take Dracothion's Tail.
     
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  6. WarbossLincoln
    Skink

    WarbossLincoln New Member

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    The dracothian's tail idea is probably the best way to run it. I don't have a slann quite yet but that's my next purchase when I get paid next week. Slann, engine of the gods, and probably 2 more boxes of warriors for Fangs of Sotek. Some ripperdactyls at some point.

    Edit: wait, the dracothian's tail battalion looks really bad. You can only set up 1 unit of each kind of warscroll every turn and I can only set up 1 unit for each one on the battlefield. So for a Firelance only 2 units go in reserves, and I can't drop 2 knight squads at once. I'd have to put the scar vet and a knight unit in to bring both in at the same time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
  7. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning Staff Member

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    Not as bad as you think.
    Ir has been played quite effectively a number of times.
     
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  8. Tokek
    Chameleon Skink

    Tokek Well-Known Member

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    Dracothian's Tail becomes your entire list. You can easily be dropping screening skink units on the table to put the Knights and Scar Vet in reserve although you probably want at least one unit of Knights on the table ready to teleport over. So you drop in a unit of knights and a scar vet exactly where you want them, then you use LoSaT to teleport another unit over to join in the fun. That is usually enough. Of course you can now summon in nice units of Razordons or whatever else you fancy because they are all part of the Dracothion's Tail and unlike "normal" summoning they arrive in the hero phase so you can buff them up any way you like. I think it works pretty well.
     
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  9. WarbossLincoln
    Skink

    WarbossLincoln New Member

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    That makes sense, in the context of it being your whole army. The main limitation is only being able to put them within 18" of your slann. I might give it a shot. I can see it being useful to protect things from getting hit until you're in a position to use them.
     
  10. LizardWizard
    Carnasaur

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    You can LoSaT your Slann up field. Risky, but can certainly be worth it.
     
  11. Killer Angel
    OldBlood

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    If you play firelance, you should also remember the sheer volume of bite attacks you can deliver with knights + cold ones.
    Buff them with a Starpriest and you'll have something.
     
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  12. WarbossLincoln
    Skink

    WarbossLincoln New Member

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    Allegiance: Seraphon
    Mortal Realm: Ghyran

    Leaders
    Slann Starmaster (260)
    - General
    - Trait: Great Rememberer
    - Artefact: Incandescent Rectrices

    Saurus Scar-Veteran on Cold One (100)
    - Artefact: Ghyrstrike
    Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (260)
    - Artefact: Light of Dracothion
    Saurus Astrolith Bearer (160)
    Engine of the Gods (220)

    Battleline
    5 x Saurus Knights (90)
    - Lances
    5 x Saurus Knights (90)
    - Lances
    5 x Saurus Knights (90)
    - Lances

    Behemoths
    Bastiladon (280)
    Stegadon (220)

    Battalions
    Firelance Starhost (150)
    Dracothion's Tail (80)

    Total: 2000 / 2000
    Extra Command Points: 2
    Allies: 0 / 400
    Wounds: 90

    Going to try this list out my next game. The knights, scar vet, and slann start on the board, everything else in deep strike. Drop them all turn 1 around the slann, maybe after teleporting if necessary. Summon skinks turn 1 for screens. I went with Bastiladon and Stegadon cause I have the models and they're different datasheets so I can bring them all in at once.

    Scar vet gets Ghyrstrike in this list, it's +1 to hit and wound. Buff him a couple times with the oldblood on carnasaur. Lets say 3 times since I have 2 extra CP. He gets 9 attacks with his pick, hitting on 2's, wounding on 2's, doing a mortal wound on 5+ on the charge from the firelance combined with +1 to wound. Then he might fight twice. On a turn with a big group of chargers I would probably spend 1 CP on the SVCO's ability to get an extra bite on the knights and reroll charges, then some on the OB to buff himself, the engine, and the SVCO in melee.

    With this list I didn't fit in my starpriest but I'd probably summon one turn 1 or 2 depending on if I need to summon skinks turn 1

    Edit: I did check when the DS happens. It's during hero phase, and the Astrolith bearer drops his banner during the hero phase so I can still do that. Astrolith gains you the d3 summoning points at the end of the hero phase so I still get that too. I don't miss out on any of the astrolith's buffs by keeping it in reserve and dropping it turn 1.
     
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  13. Tokek
    Chameleon Skink

    Tokek Well-Known Member

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    With Saurus Knights the +1 CP for Firelance really matters. As does the one for taking Dracothion's Tail. If you use knights just as cheap troops the Firelance will not do much for you but if you want them to do damage they need CP. They are one of our best ways of converting CP into removed enemy models.

    What the firelance/tail combo gives you is a pretty reliable delivery system - which if you have the CP to burn is delivering units quite capable of removing some serious hordes.
     
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  14. GuaDan
    Chameleon Skink

    GuaDan Well-Known Member

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    I'm quite a newbie, but looking at your list I would probably drop stegadon and/or basti, add a Starpriest to enhance bite attacks, add 5 dudes to a knight unit, add another engine of the gods for summoning(is it possible to add another leader?) throw in some razordon if there's room.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
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  15. Blaknight
    Jungle Swarm

    Blaknight New Member

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    I think I have missed something here. How did you get 18 attacks?
     
  16. Audvin
    Saurus

    Audvin Member

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    After attacks, roll a 4+ and attack again. After that you can attack again on a 6+. Warscroll ability.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  17. Blaknight
    Jungle Swarm

    Blaknight New Member

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    That's only for the War-pick so a Max 9 attacks.
     
  18. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    he used the oldblood's command ability thrice on the scar vet resulting in a maximum of 27 attacks.
     
  19. Blaknight
    Jungle Swarm

    Blaknight New Member

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    Im still trying to see how he gets the additional attacks. Reading the Command Ability my interpretation is that each attack gains +2 to the roll. So if spending it 3 times gives +6.

    What am I missing. Sorry.

    20181204_225534.jpg
     
  20. Killer Angel
    OldBlood

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    it increases the "attack characteristic", so the number of attacks.
    It doesn't increase the "to hit"
     

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