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8th Ed. HELP provide a points cost for my custom Tomb King, Akamun!

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Discussion' started by NIGHTBRINGER, Jul 21, 2018.

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Based on the rules attached to the original post, approximately how many points should Akamun cost?

  1. 300 points

    0 vote(s)
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  2. 350 points

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  3. 400 points

    1 vote(s)
    25.0%
  4. 450 points

    2 vote(s)
    50.0%
  5. 500 points

    1 vote(s)
    25.0%
  6. 550 points

    0 vote(s)
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  7. 600 points

    0 vote(s)
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  8. 650 points

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. 700+ points

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Hello my friends. I am back at it again and have created a new custom character for my Tomb Kings army (anything to keep me from painting I suppose... @Crowsfoot & @Lord-Marcus ;)). Much like with my first TK character Ra'nubis , I need your help in coming up with a fair points cost for the character. Just as before, here is the context:

    The goal is to points him in such a way that he is a strong and worthwhile choice (not broken like a Throgg but far from worthless like a Chakax). One should feel confident to put him in a list because he is a powerful addition, but not guilty for fear of him being broken.

    In terms of Lizardmen characters: if Chakax is a "1" and Tetto'eko is a "10" in terms of the their power level to points ratio, I'm aiming for an "8".

    The context: Akamun is a Tomb King lord to be fielded in an 8th edition WFB Tomb Kings army.

    What I ask of you (and grant you the following top hat blessings):

    [​IMG] vote in the poll to give me a ball park figure

    [​IMG][​IMG] vote in the poll and give me an exact points value

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] vote in the poll, give me an exact points value and justify/rationalize the value you provided.


    I have attached his rules as a PDF (or in text here) since it looks a bit neater (and I worked so hard on it!). If anyone has any trouble opening or viewing the file, please let me know and I can copy over his rules onto the forum directly.

    @Killer Angel @pendrake @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl @hardyworld @Warden @n810 @Krox_v.2 @Chicken Lips @airjamy


    Thanks in advance my scaly friends!! :):):)
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
  2. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Akamun's rules reference several rules from the 8th Edition army book. In case some of you don't have the Tomb Kings army book handy, here are the relevant rules:

    upload_2018-7-21_2-9-45.png

    upload_2018-7-21_2-10-10.png

    upload_2018-7-21_2-10-54.png
     
  3. pendrake
    Skar-Veteran

    pendrake Well-Known Member

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  4. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Skink Chief

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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    My Gods, this is a beautiful unofficial army book rules page you’ve done - just like the official book pages! Where were you able to get the official title font for the army book pages? I’ve been resorting to using other fonts that look similar but not exactly the same for my unofficial army books. I would give you ten likes for that piece of unofficial army book work if it wasn’t for the forum only allowing me to put one like per post, but I’ve given you a second like on the post featuring the TK army special rules as a consolation.

    Anyway, concerning your character. First of all, he’s Flammable and because he’s a named character he can’t take a Dragombane Gem, which means that units like Flame Cannons, Warpfire Throwers e.t.c. could pretty easily one-shot him if he was on his own (although all sensible TK players would take him as part of a chariot unit to give him some look out sirs). Next, he and his unit pass all Leadership tests. For a character with relatively bad Leadership like a Goblin Warboss or Skaven Warlord this would be an auto-take characteristic, but for an Unbreakable Leadership 10 Tomb King who is immune to Fear and Terror, this gives much less of a bonus. However, passing all other Characteristic tests is nice, especially against enemies that force foes to take Initiative tests which Initiative 3 Akamun would normally be considerably less willing to face.

    The Ancient Blade of Sekep is a nifty weapon as it forces all saves, including Wards, to be rerolled, which is great against more heavily-armoured foes, especially as Akamun inflicts a -3 Armour Save penalty due to being Strength 6, as even super-armoured Chaos Knights will have a much less scary 4+ Armour Save against him, which will be re-rolled. Akamun is also not a slouch as he will have a 4+ Armour Save and 4+ Ward, the latter being vital in preserving him from those Flaming Attacks that he is vulnerable to, and his Chariot is invulnerable while he is alive which is also nice, especially with the stronger steeds and improved Impact hits, which of course are a nifty anti-Elf weapon.

    Overall, I like him in terms of being good but not OP, he is quite a survivable character despite being Flammable due to his Ward and his Chariot makes him hit hard on the charge and makes him more manoeuvrable. Certainly in a Chariot unit he has the potential to run over Empire State Troops, High Elf Spearmen and other similar troops on the charge, and as long as he can break enemies on the charge he and his unit will be near-unstoppable. The only units that would be able to avoid being run down on the charge would be Knights and tough, heavily armoured infantry like Ironbreakers, Temple Guard or Chaos Warriors, in which case his unit would have a bit more work to do, but while he has Chariot bodyguards, Akamun packs quite a punch. Therefore, I vote that he should be 400 points, because of not just what he can do on his own, but what he can do alongside a bodyguard unit, especially as you want him to be an 8 out of 10 unit. If you wanted him to be an average 5 out of 10 character I’d have said 450-500, but in order for him to be a highly competitive choice without being broken, I would say a maximum of 400. Ungrim Ironfist, one of the more competitive Dwarf choices, is 350, but he doesn’t have the initial hitting power of Akamun and has the same melee Stength counting the Axe of Dargo, Ward Save and Toughness, so I’d say 400.

    I’d just say that shouldn’t the Chariot improve Akamun’s armour save by 2 rather than 2+? (An amusing typo) ;)
     
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  5. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    The forum was giving me trouble editing the original post, so here are the rules for Akamun:



    upload_2018-7-21_11-23-49.png

    TROOP TYPE: Infantry (Special Character; Tomb King)

    EQUIPMENT: Light armour

    SPECIAL RULES: Flammable, Nehekharan Undead, The Curse (see page 30), My Will Be Done (see page 30)

    Eternal Contempt: An army that contains Akamun may not include Settra The Imperishable, The Herald Nekaph or Grand Hierophant Khatep.

    The Penitent Path: Akamun automatically passes all characteristic tests. In addition, Akamun and any unit he has joined pass all leadership tests that they are required to take.

    Insatiable Will: The Chariot of the Desert Sun is bound to Akamun and sustained by his unyielding will. While Akamun is on the battlefield, the Chariot of the Desert Sun is completely impervious to harm. However, if Akamun is slain, the Chariot of the Desert Sun and the Sentinels of Set are immediately removed as casualties.

    MAGIC ITEMS:
    The Ancient Blade of Sekep:
    Found within the sacred temple of Sekep, this weapon was forged many millennia ago using forgotten magics that are far beyond any who walk the world today.

    Magic Weapon. The Ancient Blade of Sekep grants Akamun +1 Strength. Furthermore, all successful saving throws against wounds caused by this weapon must be re-rolled.

    The Great Scorpion Shield: Quenched in the blood of the mighty colossus scorpion, this sacred artifact bestows its master with the protective blessings of the goddess Serket.

    Magic Armour. Shield. The Great Scorpion Shield grants the bearer a 4+ ward save.

    Chariot of the Desert Sun: Helmed by Akamun and drawn by the implacable Sentinels of Set, the Chariot of the Desert Sun is an unstoppable amalgamation of stone, metal and fury that thunders into its foes with the unrestrained ferocity of the desert storm.

    The Chariot of the Desert Sun is drawn by two Sentinels of Set and is treated as a skeleton chariot for the purposes of the Chariot Legions special rule (see page 38). Additionally, the Chariot of the Desert Sun has the Impact Hits (D6 + 2) special rule and improves Akamun’s armour saving throw by 2+ rather than the usual +1 for being mounted.
     
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  6. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    First off, thanks for taking the time to give me such awesome feedback. Very detailed and very helpful!!

    In terms of the font, it is actually a pretty common font that I came across years ago. It is called "Caslon Antique". A quick google search will provide you with multiple sites where you can download it, for instance:
    http://www.fontspace.com/alan-carr/caslon-antique

    That was my thinking as well. As with all TK special characters, they all have a vulnerability to flaming attacks, so I made sure to leave Akamun susceptible to them as well.

    His best place is definitely in a unit of chariots. That is what I had in mind when designing him.

    I like the weapon for its extreme versatility. It works well in most situations, but doesn't ignore saves outright. Like an enhanced version of the Other Tricksters Shard from the BRB, with a strength bonus as well.

    His armour save actually works out to 3+
    • The Great Scorpion Shield
    • Light armour
    • Chariot of the Desert Sun adds 2 to his save

    AWESOME! That is very helpful. Thank you so much!

    I award you 3 top hats in recognition of your outstanding efforts:
    Tiniest Top Hat.jpg Tiniest Top Hat.jpg Tiniest Top Hat.jpg

    :)

    Good catch! It should read as "+2" and not "2+". This was the convention I was mimicking (via the WoC AB) but messed it up with a typo :D:

    upload_2018-7-21_11-49-49.png


    I've made the correction on my master copy!
     
  7. Killer Angel
    Skink Priest

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    If you're not in a hurry, I'll think on it and give a detailed review. ;)
     
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  8. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I look forward to it!
     
  9. pendrake
    Skar-Veteran

    pendrake Well-Known Member

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    The chariot has ( 5 ) wounds. The sentinels have ( — ) as a wound stat. Given the Insatiable Will rule, do either of them need a wounds stat?

    Maybe a ( * ) for both?
     
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  10. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Good point. I shall make the change!

    Thank you!
     
  11. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    @pendrake : did you vote in the poll? Someone voted for 450 points, but I can't tell who.
     
  12. pendrake
    Skar-Veteran

    pendrake Well-Known Member

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    I did vote. Machine indicates it was I that chose 450. (450 was a SWAG.)
     
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  13. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Thank you kindly!!! It is very much appreciated! Tiniest Top Hat.jpg
     
  14. Lizardmen!!
    Skink

    Lizardmen!! New Member

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    500 because I feel he is slightly better than Settra who is 475.
     
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  15. Killer Angel
    Skink Priest

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Here we are!
    As the previous time, I'll try to do a detailed analysis.

    But first of all, let me say that i love Akamun (and the work you put into it). This is a true leader of Khemri's legions of chariots!

    Tomb King - 170; Akamun should be around 180-190, as he has T6
    Chariot - 55... however this is not a standard chariot. I'd say at least 100 pts (if not 110, as it cannot be targeted and gives strong buffs to armor and impact)
    Penitent path - 60 pts (automatic wins of characteristic tests normally would be very strong, howerer Akamun got nice stats; immunity to LD tests for the unit should be no less than 40 just by itself, as the crown of command is 35)
    Ancient Blade: 40 it combines the features of sword of might (20) and other trickster's shard (15)
    Scorpion' shield: 50


    here we are: 430-450 pts

    considering the impact on the game if you include Akamun in a unit of chariot (as intended), my guts say no less than 440. 450 if you want to err on the side of caution
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
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  16. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Awesome! Thank you for taking the time to look over my character and sharing your insights. Very much appreciated!

    Tiniest Top Hat.jpg Tiniest Top Hat.jpg Tiniest Top Hat.jpg
     
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  17. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Thank you so much. I'm really glad you liked him. I think he shall work well alongside Ra'nubis (who in my little story world was actually first betrayed and killed by Akamun... and then brought back via Nagash's great spell)

    That is a great analysis. Thank you very much, that is very helpful. Tiniest Top Hat.jpg Tiniest Top Hat.jpg Tiniest Top Hat.jpg


    It looks like your value sits at right about the average in terms of the feedback that others have left up until this point. In a rough analysis (before I set up this thread) I calculated a value just about the same as you did. We placed higher and lower values on individual abilities/items, but overall our total points cost was pretty much the same.

    Thanks again for taking the time to write up such a detailed and helpful analysis for me!!
     
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  18. Killer Angel
    Skink Priest

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Well, glad you liked it. Nice to see also that the final result was the same… then the points value should be enough fine.
     
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