Lizardmen Army list building 101 Introduction I noticed that this forum doesn’t have a lot of stickied tactic topics from 7th and nothing about competitive army list building. In this article I will discuss how to effectively build army lists, especially all comers list for tournaments. I’ve been playing Lizardmen since 5th edition and been on the Swedish tournament scene for some time now. I also tend to keep myself updated on what the generic tournament builds looks like and what the top end players use. I spend a fair amount of time discussing and optimizing lists with other experienced players so my knowledge of Lizardmen and army list building is pretty decent. That being said, this article will hardly be of much use if you are a seasoned tournament veteran or if you have no interest in going to tournaments, but if you are new to the tournament scene and struggle with list building this will probably be helpful. Basic Tournament list building When building your list, always have a plan for every unit you take. Don’t just grab a couple of each unit type based on a hunch, always have a basic idea what that units purpose is and how it will complement your army. I will later give some good example of questions to keep in mind when building an all comers list. There are two theories about list building that I find particularly interesting and inspiring; redundancy and complementing. Building an army list with complementing in mind you need to think about what each unit contributes to the army. For example a Slann build and a Carnosaur build looks very different, as you need different units to complement them. Building an army list with redundancy in mind is very important. Redundancy simple means you have multiple units that can carry out a specific task, and you can lose any unit in your army without greatly affecting your army. Skinks for example are shooting support and needed to take out high T targets. If you only take 1 skink unit and face a skaven list with an abomination, he can simply focus all his fire power on that skink unit and his abomination can reach your battle line without risk of dying. If you on the other hand take 3 units of skinks he can’t deal with them all, and you can kill the abomination even if you lose 1 or even 2 skink units. You don’t necessarily need to take the same choice multiple times to achieve redundancy as some units can take on multiple roles. For example Chameleon Skinks can cover parts of Terradons job and parts of skinks job by using their scout ability to marsh block and their high BS for effective shooting. There are 5 roles that you need to fill in your army; Harassers, fighters, anvils, shooting support and hammers. Harassers job is to marsh block, take out war machines, mage hunt, bait and redirect. In the Lizardmen list skinks, cammo skinks, terradons and skink cohorts are good harassers. Especially terradons and cammo skinks are useful harassers as they are very mobile and can marsh block from turn 1, while skink skirmishers can take their role later in the game. Skink cohorts are the best and cheapest redirectors we have, and since they are not skirmishing you can angle them and control pursue/overrun paths. Fighters are close combat specialist who can beat full ranked infantry in the front without support and do well on their own. In the Lizardmen list there are only two really potent fighter unit; Kroxigors and Saurus, two very hard hitting units (one with good SCR). Cold One Cavalry could be placed into this category aswell, but are much better suited as hammers as they are only truly efficient on the charge. Anchors, or anvils, are units they tie down an enemy while a hammer unit hits them in the flank or rear, standard tank and flank unit. There are two important abilities a anchor needs: staying power and resilience. Lizardmens best anchor is the temple guard with slann unit, as they are incredibly resilient with their T4 and 2+ save, while still having incredible staying power thanks to Immune to Psychology, Stubborn, Coldblooded and most of the time a BSB around. Other decent anvils are stegadons and saurus units. Stegadons, especially with a chief on it, have both resilience and staying power, and with stubborn LD6 and coldblooded they have 90% (96% with chief) chance of passing a break test if they are in BSB range. Saurus can also be good anvils when they are within BSB and Slann’s LD range, as they can lose combat with 3 and still have 90% chance of holding. Shooting support is exactly what it sounds like, shooty troops. Lizardmen doesn’t really have any long range shooting except for the occasional Giant Bow, so they rely on their three main shooting troops: Salamanders, Razordons and Skinks. Salamanders can reach up to 6” (move) + 10” (artillery dice) +8” (template) but to be efficient they need to be at around 10” range after moving, skinks range is 6” + 12” or 8” and razordon are 6” + 12”. Hammers are heavy hitters, units that can really dish out some pain on the charge. The hammers in the Lizardmen list are all types of Stegadons and Cold One Cavalry, due to their massive damage potential on the charge and high movement. Kroxigors are decent hammers as well but are usually too wide to be very mobile and good for flanking. Here’s a short summary of the Lizardmen untis and their roles, units in bold are have their assigned role as main role, while those in non-bold can act as the role but are a suboptimal choice. As you can see most units have multiple roles. This is also when complementing comes into place, you can easily see what units can complement certain choices and act as support in their roles. Anchors: Temple Guards, Stegadons, Saurus Hammers: Cold One Cavalry, Stegadons, Kroxigors CC Specialists: Kroxigors, Saurus, Cold One Cavalry, Temple Guards Shooting: Skink skirmishers, Salamanders, Razordons, Terradons, Stegadons Harrassing: Terradons, Chameleons, Skink Cohorts, Jungle Swarms, Skinks Skirmishers, Slamanders/Razordons All comers lists As mentioned before there are certain questions you need to ask yourself when building an all comers list. In a tournament environment you face very different lists, and even if it is impossible to make a list with no bad match ups or no arch nemesis list you can make a list with no impossible match ups. The questions you need to ask yourself differ depending on the tournament climate but here are a few examples: Can I handle 11+ PDs Lists? Gunlines? Shoot & Avoidance lists? 2 Steam tanks / hydras / abominations / stegadons? 2-3 Great / Warplighting Cannons? 10-20 Wraiths? Chariot spam? High armor troops? Horde armies? Psychology? The regenerating Black Knight bus? Bloodthirsters / Dragons? Flying circus style armies?
So here’s an example of making a competitive list using mentioned theory. First we need characters. Slann is the best general choice, it provides magic offense, defense, high LD and can be a BSB. I need some disciplines on him to further strengthen both magic defense and offense. Then we need a BSB, I can either make the Slann a BSB or take a scar vet. The scar vet BSB can perform multiple tasks and handle stuff that is otherwise hard. Then to reinforce the magic phase further I’ll take a priest and give him the engine. Slann Mage-Priest. 3 Disciplines: Rumination, Mystery, Becalming Cogitation. Rod of the Storm. Bane Head. 435 pts. Scar-veteran. BSB. Cold one, LA, Enchanted Shield, Burning Blade. 170 pts. Skink Priest. Ancient Stegadon with engine. Level 2 upgrade. Plaque of Tepok. Now we need 1-2 Anvils. We already have a sub-anvil, so now we need a main anvil, so I’ll take a unit of 16 TGs with FC. They’re already expensive so no magic items for them. I also need a second support Anvil, so I’ll take a unit of 18 Saurus with spears. 16x Temple Guards. Full command. 307 pts. 18x Saurus Warriors. Full Command. 246 pts. Now we need some harassers. Two units of Terradons are perfect. 3x Terradons. 90 Pts. 3x Terradons. 90 Pts. Now we need some shooting support. Ill take 3 units of 10 skinks as they can take on more than one role and are pretty fragile. Ill also take 1 salamander, both great at causing panic and cause some serious damage. 10x Skinks. Blowpipes. 70 pts. 10x Skinks. Blowpipes. 70 pts. 10x Skinks. Blowpipes. 70 pts. 1x Slamander. 75 Pts. Then we only lack CC Specialists and Hammers, but we already have Stegadons, Saurus and Temple Guards so we are all covered in this area. The only part where we don’t have redundancy is Hammers, so I’ll spend the remaining pts on a stegadon. 1x Stegadon. 235 pts. Total: 2248 pts. So let’s go back to those all comers questions: Can I handle 11+ PDs Lists? Becalming Cogitation takes care of all Irresistible forces from any lvl 4 caster and severly limits the efficiency of one dice spam. 6 dispel dices and Cogitation should go a long way. Gunlines? The engine can protect against against shooting and with 9 dices +1 bound +1 dice per cast on the Slann I should be able to take out a lot of fragile archers / gunmen. I also have 2x3 terrradons to take out shooting units by either charging (not in the front ofc) or dropping rocks. I have redundancy for all unit roles so I could also lose any unit to shooting without being affected too badly. Shoot & Avoidance lists? Lots of skirmishers with 360 LOS that can catch and shoot at most things, 2x3 flyers that can catch anything and lots of long range magic. They are also usually very fragile so my magic and shooting will do a number on them while my troops are either skirmishers or have good save and toughness. 2 Steam tanks / hydras / abominations / stegadons? 2 Stanks are trouble, but we have giant bow that can do some damage to it, and with all spells we should be able to land several Spirit of the Forge spells on them, rendering them unusable. Same goes for stegadons. Hydras and abominations die easily from mass poison, and I shoot around 66 poison shots / turn. The Chotec BSB is the perfect anti hydra weapon. 2-3 Great / Warplighting Cannons? Cannons hurt. They really do. Terradons & magic combined should be able to take out 2 cannons pretty quickly, but when they are backed up by a gunline its gonna be an uphill battle. Hide the stegadons ! 10-20 Wraiths? The scar vet puts 2 wounds in them every turn, and unless they get a helm buff they only get to strike back with 6 attacks, doing 0.25 wounds. He kills 8 Wraiths completely unsupported before going down, and every turn he wins by 1-2 causing even more wounds due to crumble. He can easily solo a unit of 10 wraiths. I also have a pretty overwhelming magic phase and an engine. Chariot spam? Stegadons deal very well with chariots, even when they get charged. They also only wound sauruses on 3+ and they get a 5+ save (causing an average of 2 dead sauruses), 4+ save for TGs, so they don’t really have any good targets, while I can kill them with magic and shooting (or even in CC). Mass Heavily armored cav / inf? Magic is fantastic against high armored troops, especially metal but heavens do alright, the engine does very well against them as well and rod if the storm is gold (generally kills 2-3 knights for 25 pts !). Horde armies? Many units = MANY terror tests against 2x stegs, I also have a salamander that can hit 2-3 units on every shot and cause mass panic. Psychology? Coldblooded and LD 9 goes a long way, my best units are either terror causers or ITP. The regenerating Black Knight bus? Focus of Mystery means I always get spirit of the forge, and 1 is enough to take the entire bus out. My BSB can also hurt them pretty badly, but I rather stay away from close combat ! Bloodthirsters / Dragons? 66 poison shots a turn means 11 save rolls every turn putting 4 wounds / turn into a dragon and 3 into a BT (if all gets to shoot ofc, which they won’t). Giant bow, EoTG magic can give them both a run for their money. Flying circus/Royal Air Force/Sethayla style armies? Several units can shoot 360 degrees and flyers rarely have good armor. Lots of skirmishers and flyers means my battle line won’t be very static and not to threatened by flyers. All in all we have a pretty decent all comers list, that can tackle almost anything you can face in a tournament. Obviously it will be weaker against certain enemys and stronger vs others but aside from a double steam tank, war altar, 3 cannon, 60+ shots empire super gunline this list doesnt have any impossible match ups and is very strong vs a lot of armie. If we take a look at the questions at the top this list fits the following: 11+ PDs, 2 tough monsters (stegs) and Psychology (salamanders + stegs + doom and darkness), 3 of the super powered armys out there.
wow, that is just one BIG coincidence. I also made a list-building guide and posted it today. We have a somewhat different focus and style of writing. Although I must say, it's very good! You mention everything a tournament army should look out for, and it's very clear. and short! The Hunted
Yeah I just read yours, its very thorough. I missed it because it was in dicsussions isntead of tactics, but I still feel we both have different takes on how to build an army and I think they complement each other quite well. Mine focuses more on the content of a list while yours is pretty focused on the actual building process, so I think reading both would give anyone a pretty profound understanding of army building. Good work Edit: I rather keep this tactica seperate for feedback and comment purposes, but feel free to copy, link, refer or improve it in anyway, either in this topic or in yours.
Thanks They do complement eachother neatly, maybe we could mix them? With your permission I could try and fit it in my part. (ofcourse referring to your brilliant mind ) Then it's easier for everybody. Maybe you like your tactica to be a seperate part, where people could find help if needed. Just say so The Hunted
Overall a great Article. I have been an Avid lizardmen player ever since 5th ed. Although the army is great in most respects, i must point out one major flaw with the build. Your Scar-Veteran. You made mention of making him the BSB, and yet you gave him magic items. In the Army book, when a skink chief or Scar-Veteran is the BSB, they cannot take any other magic items. other than that, great build. i use a similar one whenever i play tournaments.
Well ill be a skavens uncle, all this time, i could have had a pimped out saurus vet and still the BSB.... *Facepalm*
I really like this army list! The only thing i'd like to see is that hammer be a little stronger. I've been a real advocate of the war spear a. steg just because i've been at the reviving end of it with my Helfs and that baby hurts . If you'd have to make up some room to include this bad boy what do you think of taking out (145 points i believe).
Fantastic guide. I find this to be extremely helpful as a new Lizardmen player. And i just happen to be preparing for the tournament "Giant Fanatic" in Denmark. I have been playing O&G for the last 4 months, and when I first placed my lizardmen list on the table, I got beaten so bad. It was a fairly bad list, and deployment sucked. This really helped me out a lot. I made a list based on this guide, twisted to fit the GF restrictions ofc, and managed to get a draw vs. Bretonia. I'd love to see more guides from you. Things like deployment, using units, and playing lizardmen in general. This one was very well written, and if you enjoy doing guides you should just go for it! Again. Very helpful and I'll be sure to remember as much of this as humanly possible
This is just... great. It's awesome when an experienced person takes time to help the new blood get a hang of things.
For 8th edition (my thougts): lizardmen lists remained nearly same when moving from 7th to 8th: More Saurus warriors, less Stegas and Terras. Only thing that changed is that EotG arent worth anymore IMO. Normal Stegas can march 98% of time when near general and/or bsb. for example, my list for a tournament held this weekend Only character slann led lizards need is slann: Good LD, magic, rerolls to LD tests. Scar vets arent imo worth it, you'd be paying 150sh poits for hero that kills 3-4 models per turn, and everytime enemy can hit him, no matter how many models you killed
This might be picking straws- but I feel that in any list salamanders should be taken. As a lizardmen general you need to understand that in 8th edition our worst nightmare isn't big scary monsters like the rest of the world; its large steadfast units. Our saurus are some of the best fighters granted; but this game is only 6 turns and can be surprisingly fast pace. I think not being able to force "winnable" break tests is key. So, in 8th IMO the goal isn't to outkill the unit, its to always be able to: 1. win combat 2. Break steadfast If you do those, every advantage you want will be yours. If you don't, you will find yourself fighting an uphill battle. Since our saurus are killing machines winning isn't as important as breaking steadfast. We never (almost never) have rank advantage going into a battle so what do we need to do? kill a few before combat starts. Best way to do that? Template weapons. Whats our best template? Salamanders. Skinks don't cut it as their task is a different target (high T, low AS) as already pointed out. Just saying; salamanders for 80 points are an incredible deal. Take at minimum 2 every time. Or at least that's what I would recommend.
I do love the salamander. I only own 1 at present but will probably pick up another as I'm cutting my WHFB armies hopefully down to 2 (good ones). My 2250 list has changed to something like: Slaan; becalming; focus; rumination; mystery; BSB Scar vet kitted out for combat Skink chief lv2 on EoG steg 2 x 20+ saurii with hw+ shield (slightly better than spears now IMO) 2 x 10 Skink Skirmishers 2 x 5 Chameleon skinks Salamander + extra handler 16+ temple guard for the Slaan to hide in So mainly bigger blocks of saurii is the major change. Spear saurii is tempting but survivability is probably more important... or is spears better?