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7th Ed. Lizardmen tactics against the new VC

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by Zemaphore, Apr 8, 2008.

  1. Zemaphore
    Skink

    Zemaphore New Member

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    With the advent of the 7th edition VC, what tactics are the LM players going to be deploying against the undead horde?
     
  2. SohCahToa
    Kroxigor

    SohCahToa New Member

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    Ive only played two games against the new vc (one minor victory in my favour, and a massacre in his favour :shamefullyembarrased: ). I just wanted to share a couple points that i have gleaned from these games

    (1) Although 1-2 dispel scrolls are always useful (vanhels comes to mind), you're going to need LOTS of dispel dice. As vc can now heal units on a 3+ multiple times with one caster (all vamps are casters now btws), use the corpse cart's bound, and a couple other deadly bounds, the sheer amount of low level spells going off in a turn is insane. To counteract this, the diadem and a bunch of tepok is very necessary. Also, the cube is incredibly useful as you can cancel out all of their magic in the crunch turn. In essence, the standard scroll caddie or offensive slann just wont have the power to dipel everything without additional countermeasures.

    (2) Against vc, JSoD and FSoD need a magic weapon. Although the venom cant be used in conjunction with either the cloak or the jaguar pendent, the amount of deadly ethereals out there has increased (wraiths are ridiculous, spirit hosts now skirmish, necs. can be ethereal....and now the black coach can become ethereal :rolleyes: ).

    (3) That said, stegadons I find to be much more useful against the new vc. Now that vampires are going to be more common over necros, large core units are going to have a greater chance of breaking Saurus (striking first vamp, and then fear outnumber from unit). The stegy will generally be able to wistand the vamp for several turns (and you can always just put all attacks into the vamp), and still get a stubborn bonus against the unit.

    (4) Although Knights of the Blood Keep look deadly on paper, just like chosen Khorne knights it is all too easy to direct them away from the battle. A single well placed swarm base or sacrificial skink unit can take the unit out of the main combat for at least a turn or two.
     
  3. Sammy the Squib
    Salamander

    Sammy the Squib Member

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    I haven't played against them but I've read the book and the new cairn wraiths look nasty, how would we deal with those?
     
  4. Bleyden
    Skink

    Bleyden New Member

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    I can imagine Cube of Darkness being very good, use it in the first turn and suddenly no more zombies/skellies popping up everywhere!

    That would be a nasty surprise.
     
  5. Axolotl
    Saurus

    Axolotl New Member

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    I have not actually played the new VC but i have a pretty solid plan what to field against them.

    First of all i will likely play a sacred host. tzlacotl would be great for the immune to psychology effect and for shamans to have the rule of burning iron spell. on the other hand tepok would rock too because all the shamans could use that strenght 6 magic missile.


    A 2nd Gen Slann is a must. I will give him the magic staff that adds +1 to dispel, p.o. tepok and bane head. with a total of +2 to dispel all the spells for which my opponent uses only one power dice are very likely to get dispelled. The Bonus spell for 3rd gen slanns (can't remember the name) that let the enemy mage ignore power dice rolls of 4 5 and 6 will really ruin the enemy generals day. He actually cant cast anything with one dice when you use it, since even if he can cast on a 3+ you don't even need to roll a dice to dispel it because you get that +2 on the roll anyway.

    Against blood keep knights the lore of metal will rock. the first spell alone is pretty cool, since its a flaming attack (no regen) and is NOT a magic missile (so the banner that gives a 4+ ward save against missiles is useless) and it ignores armour saves. if you get spell number 6 its even harder.

    I will also take 2 lvl 2 Shamans, one with diadem and one with 2 scrolls.

    I assume the general has a good armour save too, so the rule of burning iron in combination with the bane head and two shamans casting the same spell will likely cause 4 wounds on the vampire per turn, maybe two if he dispels some atempts. Of course the first spell of the lore of light is a must too. some magic missiles against etheral stuff is also nice.

    Salamanders. They munch through all the vampires core troops.

    Terradons and scouts to marchblock him so you have more time to do some magic.

    a few saurus and kroxis to try to hold his troops off your slann and other casters as long as possible

    maybe, if i still have points left, a stegadon that i will keep near my slann to rush at anything that threatens him. A bunch of COR might do the same job.

    If your opponent fields a close combat orientated vamp army it could be a grave mistake to go all magic, of course. Especially if it is a horde army, since you can't kill that many zombies with spells. But my list will be against a magic heavy list, so that is all on which i thought on how to counter it ^^
     
  6. skinkyone
    Chameleon Skink

    skinkyone Active Member

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    5 of the regs at my store use VC armies,
    ive found the best way to deal with them is skinks,
    i use
    1 skink chief
    2 skink priest
    10 skinks blow pipes
    10 skink blow pipes
    20 skinks
    20 saurus with 2 marks

    as my 1000 base,
    usually put one of the heros in each skink unit
    and use the one with staff of light for etherial hunting,
    VC are still effected by posion
    my last game i killed 1000 points of vc and only lost 19 points of model,
    a very unluck saurus and a skink,
    in other games against VC i lose on average about 200 - 300 points to a total wipe out,
    the VC really suffer form the fact they have no shooting and skirmishers and scouts are free to run around anoying and picking of units as they please,
     
  7. SohCahToa
    Kroxigor

    SohCahToa New Member

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    @ Skinkyone: does your opponent dont run a vargulf/flying vamp/m9 vamp/wolves/bats? Generally I have found that without ld 8 a skink heavy army suffers heavily as fast moving vampires causing terror go breezing through ranks.

    OT: Although a Tlazcotl host with a slann will almost always beat a VC army, the real issue is how to defeat them with a balance/tournament style list. My experience over the last month or two is that there are some rather generic lists which develop:

    Most opponents I have played against employ a magicy vamp lord (raise dead, raise creatures of the night, books, etc) and two fast vamps (one flying, one movement 9, both heavily armored). Generally now that ghouls have superceded skeletons as the most efficient base core unit, ghoulkin has become a rather common occurence (all the ghoul units move 8 inches before game....oh wait....now my opponent can do a first turn charge with his vamp of flying-infinite hatred-able to heal himself goodness into anywhere in my battle line)

    Beyond the basic ghouls/vamp heroes, I dont think that BloodKeep and the VC players have really agreed on how to build the rest of the list, as in the GT Heat I ran up against players with the same basic build but drastically different supports.
     
  8. skinkyone
    Chameleon Skink

    skinkyone Active Member

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    yep ive played against list using vargulfs,
    but not the m9 vampire in smaller games as it is a waste of points unless you play 2k games, a VC player has to babysit his vamps in units, no hero no matter dead or alive can really risk being by themselves,
    and my main answer is use terrain to your advantage, yep stuff like the vargulf and direwolves move qucker than you but, they cant move as easily
    and dont have 360 charge arc,
    remeber as well a vargulf only has a regen save,
    posion still works against it,

    take advantage of your oponents weakness and with a VC army he will have No shooting,
    and his heros cost 4X as much as yours,
    in smaller games 2 skink shamans is easily enough to stop VC magic,
    in larger games theres the slann,

    the only problem i generally find is t2,
    the ld 6 is less of a problem with 3 dice you cant say its def but there still a average chance of passing a unmoded leadership test
     
  9. SohCahToa
    Kroxigor

    SohCahToa New Member

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    I mean people field a JSoD and Alter Nobles in a 1k game...and the mark of Lucinni vamp is only 20 pts more than a JSoD for a 1+ save...and then u add terror.....we're in the realm of 7th edition herohammer afterall

    anyway its more important to note that if your opponent uses his fast troops right, you wont be able to get close enough to shoot with a 12" weapon, without getting charged first.
     
  10. Daeghrefn
    Saurus

    Daeghrefn New Member

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    I try really hard to avoid designing lists specifically to beat one type of army, even if I know that the tourny coming up will have mostly VC players. Despite this, I did wind up taking two blocks of Tlazcotl Saurus, and a 2nd gen slann with Temple guard sporting the fear causing magic standard. Unfortunately, I could have maneuvered with considerably more effect and instead found myself surrounded and outflanked by the sheer number of undead units.
    The Varghulfs are a real thorn, but Kroxigors seem to handle them quite nicely.
    With one skink priest and the 2nd gen slann I was still badly out-magicked :( By the end of that game Mannfred's unit of skeletons was practically half the board long.

    Here's the basic problem I was running into - I wanted more skink priests to bolster dispel dice and add casting options, but at the same time I like running a JSOD and a scar vet at the front of my warrior blocks. This time around I just ran out of hero choices, and had to run my warrior blocks with just the standard command group. They simply could not cause enough casualties to overcome other combat factors, and after several turns they finally collapsed and routed.

    I am still a bit new at using a Slann, but for being the most powerful caster in the game I must be doing something wrong. I am routinely outspelled by the new VC and DE factions. Any suggestions? I'm about to just forget the whole thing and go back to my Oldblood on Carnosaur :bored:
     
  11. Dalkarius
    Ripperdactil

    Dalkarius New Member

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    I recently fought a rather decent Vampire player for the first time (lots of nasty suprises) but still managed to kill him quickly enough. First of all, that Black Coach was nasty, so I wasted no time and hurled my JSoD across the board and blew it up with a Str 7 hit, due to it technically being a chariot. :) As for those wretched Meat Wagon things, I had some chameleons march block and blow up one out of 4 the first turn. Then I massed my skinks into a nice river that happened to cut clear across the baord. (Had plenty of bridges however). This was my usual list of lots of Skinks, Kroxigors, JSoD, FSoD, Super-Slann, and salamanders. Firstly, lore of Light and shadows saved the day. His units would rarely get off against me anyway and when they did I usually poisoned them with one of my 4 skink units or used Pit of Shades to quickly demolish them. As for Vargulfs, Skinks will butcher them and if not, Krox's take care of them pretty quick. But I did run into a problem with a 50 man unit of skeles with WS 6 and a 3+ save due to some Vamps items, but a few Pit of Shades' and Conflageration of Dooms managed to wipe them clean off the board.

    So, I'd say a Slann with Light, Shadow, or Fire and bring lots of Skinks that are all scouts to allow a swift change in deployment. Chameleons can get right in there and hopefully snipe any terror units. Kroxs are important as they can butcher most undead and cause fear themselves so no worries there. Salamanders can rape nearly ANYTHING that moves with a toughness of 3, so many VC's died due to mine. DO NOT forget to use the terrain if you take a list like mine, it's all about outmanuevering the opponent cause few of them can chase through terrain without serious troubles. I also used my JSoD with Steed of Shadows to get him into combat first turn with anything nasty (Black Coach, or lone Necros, challenge enemy heroes hiding in units).

    I didn't find the VC's very challenging...just be ruthless and hit them without mercy at their vital points ASAP.

    -Dalkarius
     
  12. didleoman
    Chameleon Skink

    didleoman New Member

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    I think Dalkarius has the right idea. Also if you are really lucky you can get your scouts to somehow kill the vampires early on ending any worry about needing to dispell.

    But this thread certainly is giving me ideas to approaching VC as someone in my group is picking them up in the near future.
     
  13. FrozenLizards
    Saurus

    FrozenLizards New Member

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    After reading this thread and reading up on the VC forums I took on my first VC match up (first 2000 pt game). I went in w/ a 2nd gen Slann army dispel heavy and my 2 best units were an 2x7 unit of Quetzl w/ hand wepons & a Skink priest w/ Cube of Darkness (CoD) and Blessing of the Old Ones. The CoD worked beautifully. It was a great game but ended in a tie.

    I learned alot, but couldn't break him, co to the fact that I'm learning and couldn't role to save my life. I will now always field a Skin Preist w/ Old Ones and a CoD against VC. my next match up this weekend will be a 1500 point game so no Slann :(

    Thanks for all the helpfull tips and one I learnd is have your Krox avoid Banchees.
     
  14. FrozenLizards
    Saurus

    FrozenLizards New Member

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    I have writen up 2 Army lists for my VC game sunday. I was hoping to get tips and feedback from the pros to see if they are any good.

    JSoD-Gen, GW, LA, Sh, Sotek & Tlazc
    Jag Charm, Sword of Striking
    ^using to target anything Ethereal, marchblock, annoy from behind

    Skink Priest- Mg2,Old Ones
    Cube of Darkness
    ^use to kill an Vamp magic phase when he NEEDs to heal, good spells not needing range

    Skink Chief- Scout, x2 HW, Jav, LA, Sh
    Burning Blade of Chotec & Bane Head/Dispel scroll
    or
    Scimitar of teh Sun Resplendent
    or
    Dagger of Sotek & Bane Head/Dispel Scroll
    ^sneak him and a unit of Skinks to distract and take out corpse carts

    10Skink- Scout, Champ, Jav, Sh
    10 Skink- Bp
    10 Skink- Bp
    6 Kroxigors- Champ
    7 Chameleons- Champ
    4Terradons
    3 Salamanders

    2nd List

    Vet- Gen, LA, Sh, Quetz, Sotek
    Piranha Blade, Bane Head
    ^keep him in my block of Saurus and pick out mainenemy block, Bane Head on a Varghulf or anything heafty

    SoD-Gen, GW, LA, Sh, Sotek & Tlazc
    Jag Charm, Sword of Striking
    ^using to target anything Ethereal, marchblock, flank

    Skink Priest- Mg2,Old Ones
    Cube of Darkness
    ^Magic Vaccuum

    19 Saurus- Champ, Spr, Std, Quetz
    ^w/ Gen in ranks and it's size on top of Cold Blooded shouldn't have to worry too much about fear.
    10 Skink- Jav, Sh
    ^Skirmish Screen
    10 Skink- Scout, Bp
    ^distract & March block
    4 Krox
    3 Terradons
    3 Sallies

    These are the 2 armies I have some up w/ and I think the first is best to work on any thing Ethereal heavy and the second is for any black coach or vamp stomping. But what do u think?
     
  15. Dalkarius
    Ripperdactil

    Dalkarius New Member

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    Ok, it's a pretty good build, firstly I'll start off by saying your Chief can't even take Dispel scrolls, not a wizard. Secondly, you might consider two priests instead of one, because vamps have ALOT of dangerous spells and it sucks for us Lizards that all of their chracters count as wizards if I recall correctly. I'm assuming this is a lower then 2,000 point game due to there being no lord.

    Ok, corpse carts, are a pain because they don't count as chariots, but they're too big for killing blow, so the only way to take them down is a good combat/magic/shooting phase. Although I think they have regen, so good luck. (If you play with your Salamanders having a Flaming attack, it'll be a piece of take to blast those things)

    Also, if you have a JSoD GIVE HIM A WARD SAVE! This is essential especially since he'll be good for smashing Vampires. Another thing is you may want to think hard on taking Sotek rather then Quetzl, for although that 1+ attack is nice, it turns to be a real pain when he knocks out your armor save with a Str 4-5 shot. I personally think the Aura of Quetzl, Charm of the Jaguar, and what you have already equipped with the exception of Spawning choice. Now, don't get me wrong, the Sotek spawning might do the trick, just realize it'll trap you to try and smash in your foes' skull in one combat phase, while Quetzl will keep you better alive against near anything, especially any moves that dodge the Str 5 line for the Aura.

    As for units, I think it looks pretty good. Make sure you convince him to put as much terrain as possible on the field, also, I'd take away the champion of the scouting skinks and try to make one of the non-scouting units into a scout unit. If you manage a water feature on the board, you can deploy there no matter what with skinks and have a perfect spot to assail your foe with blowpipes galore.

    That's all for now, good luck. And remember, salamanders (ESPECIALLY if you play as their attack flaming) can kill almost any VC unit or monster with an average roll. And take the JSoD so you can manuever well, plus don't forget that he can destroy the black coach and the enemy general if you play your cards right.

    -Dalkarius
     
  16. FrozenLizards
    Saurus

    FrozenLizards New Member

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    My build w/ the Skink chief is for if he uses corpes carts I will give him the Burning Blade of Chotec (-2 AS, Flaming attack). I want the Quetzl b/c I expect that block to take about 2-3 turns of combat and a good block of undead won't fall in one charge. I figure I'd rather have a +1 that will help for every round that one that will only work on the charge. I will give my JSoD a ward save, that's a great idea.

    Thank you for al the tips I'll give my listd a once over and be sure to update everyone on how the match goes.
     
  17. Dalkarius
    Ripperdactil

    Dalkarius New Member

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    Good luck!
     
  18. Craziecory
    Skink

    Craziecory New Member

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    Ok please keep in mind i'm new to fantasy, been a 40k for a long while so i'm just getting the hang of this game.

    My last two games have both been against VC, the first one I was wiped out by the third turn, the second I nearly made it to the sixth. Both games have been against a GW Blackshirt who is very good at playing VC (I knew this going into the battles, I wanted a chalenge)

    I went 2nd gen Slan
    *(plaques: extra spell, +1 power/dispell die,) Die of power
    2 priests
    *Cloak of feathers / Jaguar charm, Scroll
    3 groups of 20 sarus
    *Command
    4 groups of 10 skinks
    *Scouts
    3 salamanders
    3 Kroqs
    *Ancient

    My first game I kinda ran wild at him and his blood knights slaughtered me, next game i was more reserved and he played a "less cheesey" (his own words) list with manfired. I think thext time I'm going to play him i'm going to try and kill his lord so all of his guys crumble away.
     
  19. FrozenLizards
    Saurus

    FrozenLizards New Member

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    Well my Sunday match up didn't go well. It was a 1500 pt game and OMG it was bad. I made 2 huge mistakes. The first match was a wash b/c of a rule mistake, we're both newbies. The second match lasted but I was crushed by ethereal. My first big mistake was ( yes yes yes you guys were right) not enought dispel & magic. My second mistake was too much scout. I didn't get to use any of my scouts b/c he picked sides both games and took naked side of the board. 2 big mistakes that brought my doom but next sunday will be a a 2000 pt game and I will bring the Slann! I will not make the mistake again adn I'm thinking about using my JSoD to take out his Vamp ASAP.
     
  20. SohCahToa
    Kroxigor

    SohCahToa New Member

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    Dont take Saurus against VC. Its as simple as that. Period.

    You loose the main advantage Saurus have against enemy infantry (cold-blooded) and the undead benefit from being able to strike first. As Saurus are designed to win over several turns rather than breaking on an initial shock, you are not going to see big units do well. The only exception is if you make the immune to psych, but then you cant flee which is critical when playing a slower/expensive unit army like VC.

    Not only that, but oftentimes vamps (or thralls) will be in infantry blocks, and lissies dont play well with characters in units. Another reason your Saurus will generally get their tails spanked.

    The best way that I have found to beat VC, and this has led to many victories, is to play a points denial/msu combination. Your goal is to kill off all of the cav, flyers, chariots, and other support troops that often (un)suprisingly make up the bulk of non-character points. At the same time, using a lone slann kitted with anti-magic and a mobile MSU list, you ensure that vamps summon troops only where u want them to be summoned (10-15 raised units are easy vp if they are in the middle of nowhere, afterall). After 3 turns of avoiding the infantry blocks at all costs, and assuming most of their support troops have been destroyed, almost all vamp players make the fatal mistake of throwing lone thralls at bait units.

    Since the new VC have come up, I have wiped out only 3 blocks of skellies, and I have played well over 3 games.
     

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