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AoS Lord Kroak Power Level

Discussion in 'Seraphon Discussion' started by DeathBringer125, Sep 19, 2018.

  1. DeathBringer125
    Ripperdactil

    DeathBringer125 Well-Known Member

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    Hey my favorite lore character is Lord Kroak because he is freakin epic. I’ve been looking on sites for how powerful he is but every site has a different answer. Also I want to know if he is more powerful then Nagash lore wise. Lol some sites say that he isn’t some say that he is way more powerful. Some sites say Mazdamundi is stronger while others say kroak is etc. lol someone please tell me his power rating lorewise and also if possible include his power before and after his death and also whether spirit Kroak can be killed because so far I haven’t heard anything like that.
     
  2. LizardWizard
    Troglodon

    LizardWizard Well-Known Member

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    There are different answers largely because GW has provided different answers through out their narrative. In the old world I would say there is no Doubt that Lord Kroak was the premiere master of the arcane. However, Nagash is now literally a god. He has also consumed all the other gods of death in his realm and taken both their domains and their magical potency. I am not certain that GW has provided a direct answer to their powers respective to each other. One thing of note is that Nagash seems to be struck down fairly often. And not always by some unbelievable strong oppenent. It took half a dozen blood thirsters to tear Kroak apart and he never actually died. Nagash has to bind his spirit to his 9 books and other artifacts. Kroak merely wills his life essence to continue.

    Great thread. I look forward to following this discussion.
     
  3. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    While Kroak was alive, he was significantly more powerful than Mazdamundi. Lord Kroak is a first generation Slann while Mazdamundi is a Slann is "only" a second generation Slann. Additionally, Kroak learned magic directly from the Old Ones.

    Living Kroak was the most powerful of all the Slann.
     
  4. DeathBringer125
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    DeathBringer125 Well-Known Member

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    So is dead Kroak more powerful than Nagash? Or just living Kroak. Also how close are Mazdamundi and dead Kroak
     
  5. Killer Angel
    OldBlood

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    IN the Old World, Lord Kroak was stronger than Nagash (lorewise).
    Actually, Nagash is the leader of all undead forces and got (literally) god-like powers.
     
  6. DeathBringer125
    Ripperdactil

    DeathBringer125 Well-Known Member

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    How does living and dead Lord Kroak compared to godlike Nagash
     
  7. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    I have limited knowledge about the lore, but to me it looks like this:

    Kroak is probably in many ways more powerful now than he was when he was still alive. Just because he had a lot of time to learn. At the same time he probably has some disadvantages that a living being doesn't have.

    Nagash is now a lot more powerful than he was when the Old World still existed. But I think his biggest strength is that all the undead follow him.

    So a direct confrontation.... I think Nagash might lose if they were both alone.
    But the Lore tells us that it takes armies consisting of HUGE forces from all grand alliances (including Seraphon bringing not one but several Slann) are _just_ strong enough to beat Nagash's stuff. He is a mighty General with a huge army and almost unlimited resources.

    So I think Nagash is more powerful, but in the same way that the former President of the United States in 1978, Jimmy Carter, was more powerful than Idi Amin, the leader of Uganda at the same time. In a straight up boxing fight he would have gotten his ass kicked though, as Idi Amin was a heavyweight boxing champion.


    Note that this has nothing to do with the game of course. :D
     
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  8. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    To be honest I wouldn't be too sure of that. The lore around malign portents was rather scarce as far as it involved the seraphon. The issue is that Nagash had literally every single possible advantage he could have as well as the full might of the death allegiances in that battle. And even then the forces send by the other factions were "limited". Massive armies were send, and yes there were some slann (2? 3? 100? who knows, why would GW give actual numbers...) but this was not the full might of every faction. On top of that, none of the other factions send their big names. Nagash was standing there with literally everything he had & in return who showed up? Some random throw away characters. It's the biggest threat facing the realms in ages & noone like Kroak, kairos or the celestant prime bothered to show up. Hell I don't even think any greater deamons showed up. Which to be honest does rather downplay the threat Nagash actually posed.. And given that the we have things like Tzeentch involved I very much doubt that you can get away with "Nagash was just super sneaky and they all understimated him"..

    All in all I would still claim that Kroak is still more powerfull than Nagash based on the old lore & the fact that Kroak has literally survived every single thing thrown his way, including the literal end of the universe, by just willing himself to do so. Not even the chaos gods or Sigmar can claim that feat. On that alone I would say that Kroak is probably the single most powerfull entity in existence. Only issue is that we have so little lore... and obviously the actual rules can't represent that either as "realistic" rules for Kroak would allow him to table 2.500 point armies with ease in a single spell, so basing it of that doesn't work either...

    As for Nagash's actual powers. His main strengths seem to be his massive armies & the fact that both him and his followers are nigh indestructable, endless and eternal. Not to mention that destroying him at this point would involve conquering the literal realm of the death, and outside of himself noone really wants or can stay in the realm of the death without expanding considerably amounts of resources. All in all that means that although striking him down is relativly straightforward, but it just means he'l try again in a couple 100 years...

    To be honest, if it came to a battle between the two I'd bet on Kroak in nearly any scenario, supported by armies or not. Nagash had all his preperation, in his own realm, surrounded by sand that literally kills his enemies for him, with the full might of a grand allegiance, and he still couldn't manage his ritual. Hell he couldn't even protect his walls from being breached. Seriously, how ridiculously massive were the order, destruction & chaos armies that the entirety of death can't grind them to a standstill?
     
  9. The17thYak
    Skink

    The17thYak New Member

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    I think I would have to give it to Kroak, Nagash is the God of Death and has control of all the dead in the realms... Kroak is dead but thought "nah that's not for me" so chose to ignore death and carry on doing what he wants. No he is basically he is thumbing a boney nose at Nagash and blowing a raspberry. I realise Kroak "died" before Nagash came into being but I'd have thought being THE god of death and consuming all the other death gods he should really be able to deal with one mummified toad but Kroak is still about doing his Kroak things.
     
  10. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I wouldn't go that far. :cyclops:



    In general, we have to admit that much of this is pure speculation on our part. It's tough to accurately compare the relative strength levels of the various iterations of Kroak and Nagash. They are powerful in different ways, but I think it is safe to say that each of them has had a larger impact than Mazdamundi.

    Perhaps in terms of raw magical strength because obviously Slann > Human. However, Nagash may have left a larger lasting impression. Whether directly or indirectly, he is ultimately responsible for the creation of both the Tomb Kings and Vampire counts. So while Kroak had the edge in raw magical might, Nagash successfully did more with less. Of course, the counter to that argument is that living Kroak existed in a time when the flood-like incursion of the daemons was at its peak. His feats in repelling the daemon legions are legendary.

    The issue with conversations like this is that each army book propped up their race's characters. Reading one army book will lead you to one conclusion, while reading another will result in an opposite conclusion.
     
  11. LizardWizard
    Troglodon

    LizardWizard Well-Known Member

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    In AoS I would say that Nagash's actions are better know, but not necessarily more impactful. Lord Kroak Literally stopped the end of the World that Was... twice. He is also likely what preserved the shattered core Malus during the destruction of the second moon thus potentially allowing for the permanents, like Sigmar, to reawaken in the newly formed mortal realms and buying time for temple ships of Lustria to leave the old world preserving what remained of the Lizardmen.

    Lastly, Kroak is most likely the Slann who taught the Elves magic. He then bought them the time needed to bind the winds of magic into the Maelstrom of the world that was. Thus, I would say Lord Kroak had a bigger impact on lore then Nagash.
     
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  12. Canas
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    Canas Well-Known Member

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    Well who would be more powerfull? There don't seem to be any other beings that have pulled of the same feats that he did. Sigmar is the only other being that actually survived the world that was, all the other permanents and even the chaos gods had to reawaken/reform, and even Sigmar didn't so much survive as much as that he simpyl wasn't blown up. Kroak (and the seraphon/lizardmen in general) seems to be the only one to actually survive without burnmarks from an exploding world. He's also the only being I know of that literally couldn't be bothered to die. And his magical feats and sheer kill counts are without equal. Not to mention he's now had a couple millenia of extra practise to become yet more powerfull. Unless there's fluff somwhere claiming he grew weaker than he was during the world that was there's very few beings that should be able to even compete with him.


    Arguably Kroak is the reason the old world (and the new world) still existed in the first place for Nagash to even show up. He did save the world a million times over, not to mention that in sheer (Daemon) kill count there's probably noone that can keep up.
     
  13. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Admittedly I don't follow AoS lore. My viewpoint is purely based on Warhammer Fantasy Battles. As such, I can't really comment on bits of lore taken from AoS and will have to take your word on it.
    I believe that it was the Slann collectively that taught the Elves magic and also assisted in the creation of the great vortex. I don't remember reading specifically that it was Kroak alone that was involved in those events.

    In terms of old world lore (I can't speak on AoS lore) Nagash is literally responsible (directly in the case of TK and indirectly in the case of VC) for two army books, and consequently their lore:
    [​IMG]

    Kroak on the other hand is responsible for none.


    The Old Ones for one. They were clearly more powerful than Kroak, even though they disappeared (as far as I know their fate is not known).

    The Chaos gods are infinitely more influential. You can field Kroak in both AoS and WFB, but you can't field a Chaos god because they would be completely OP and game breaking. In addition, Kroak on the battlefield (WFB) is less effective than Kairos, and Kairos is a mere servant to his master: Tzeentch. Also consider that the influence of Chaos (which is a composite of the 4 chaos gods) is far wider reaching than Kroak in terms of army books, followers, influence on geographical areas and general story progression.

    In terms of AoS... you'd have to go with Sigmar. I mean the game is named after him! Plus his wretched SCE make up the heart of the entire game. Seraphon are more of a footnote (no model releases thus far and only an outdated battletome to speak of). Didn't Sigmar literally create the mortal realms? Kroak has done nothing so substantial.

    There are more, but you get my point.
     
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  14. LizardWizard
    Troglodon

    LizardWizard Well-Known Member

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    The world that was would not have made it out its infancy without the acts that of Lord Kroak. He is the one who bought the elves the time needed to bind the winds into the Maelstrom. That is why I said he is more lore impactful, although his acts are less know.
     
  15. Paradoxical Pacifism
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    Paradoxical Pacifism Well-Known Member

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    I think this thread would fit the fluff forum more.

    Oh wel
     
  16. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    That was Kroak and the rest of the Slann (plus the entirety of the Lizardmen forces). An impressive feat no doubt, but one where Kroak had lots of aid. Nagash's spell that ravaged all of Nehekhara was a solo effort.

    Also consider that Nagash was the father of necromancy. He brought it into existence and unlocked its mastery. Not bad for a mere human.
     
  17. Killer Angel
    OldBlood

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    I agree.
    However, it's interesting to note that the 2 main BIG projects made by nagash (1 in the Oldworld and the other one in AoS), both failed because he wasn't paying enough attention (Yeah, i know… he was focused on the ritual… but nonetheless the defensive apparatus set by himself, failed twice)

    The creation of the Tomb Kings was not in his agenda. The merit goes to him, in the same way we accredit Colombo for the discovery of America. They both did it, but both were mistakes.
     
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  18. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    That is a fair enough point. I do agree that things did not go as he intended. But the magical ability to create such a feat, even if it did not go as planned, was monumental none the less.

    Also consider where Nagash came from. He was a mortal human. He did not have the innate magical skills of the Slann. He was not trained by the Old Ones. Yet he was able to reach literal godhood.
     
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  19. LizardWizard
    Troglodon

    LizardWizard Well-Known Member

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    Nagash is an impressive wizard no doubt. And while Nagash invented much of the necromantic arts there is surely no thing of magic which he could show to Kroak that would be unknown to him. What of death magics can you teach to a being who exist now merely by choosing to do so. There is no other magic that can measure up to the reality breaking magic of the Old Ones. Lord Kroak is the closest being in the narrative to the Old Ones. He is first of the Slann made in the image of the Old Ones by the Old Ones and taught to wield their power. And sure, it was mostly the first spawning of Slann who spent their life forces to close the rift, but it was Kroak who bent reality and time to allow them the ability to do so.

    Lord Kroak is a rival even to the ruinous powers. All his being is devoted to the defeat of the Chaos gods. His plans and powers are as unknowable as theirs. Kroak, like the Old Ones, wields the power to make and unmake worlds. What is power over the dead compared to that. Even mortals like the Idoneth rob Nagash daily of his due. Nagash's greatest achivment to date was largely foiled by some misplaced Skaven.
     
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  20. Killer Angel
    OldBlood

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Yes: the "starting material" of Kroak was better than what Nagash was made of.

    For this reason, the potential of Nagash and the results acheved were staggering, and Nagash' power is increasing through the lore, with a growth from WHFB to AoS.
    That's why i tend to give an edge to Kroak in the old world (where LK reached his top, while Nagash was still shortening the gap), and an edge to Nagash in AoS (where LK power is unchanged, while Nagash reaches god-like status).
     
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