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8th Ed. Lord Kroak vs Dwarfs question

Discussion in 'Rules Help' started by eppe, Feb 21, 2014.

  1. eppe
    Kroxigor

    eppe Member

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    If a dwarf has 2 Runes of Spell breaking does that mean Lord Kroak can be prevented from casting Deliverance of Itza for the rest of the game.

    2 Runes of Spell Breaking state that the spell is stolen and then on a 4+ the wizard can not cast that spell for the rest of the game.
     
  2. Fhanados
    Terradon

    Fhanados Well-Known Member

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    Lord Kroak can't lose his spell. It's listed under the Magic: section of his bestiary entry. It's not a special rule, so it's easy to miss!
     
  3. T_Saurus
    Cold One

    T_Saurus Member

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    In particular the relevant section is p. 52
     
  4. eppe
    Kroxigor

    eppe Member

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    That doesn't address the line where he is prevented from casting it again on a 4+ from the Dwarf which is the point I was asking about.
     
  5. T_Saurus
    Cold One

    T_Saurus Member

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    Ah I see what you are getting at now...

    Yep that's a problem. FAQ?
     
  6. Screamer
    Temple Guard

    Screamer Member

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    I would say that he's prevented from casting the spell, but immidiatly remembers how to do it again!

    Or, if you need to argue that standpoint, in your turn you decide in which order to apply the things that happen at the same time (and I assume this is such a case), and in your turn he first forgets the spell, and then remembers it again before casting.
     
  7. T_Saurus
    Cold One

    T_Saurus Member

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    But it is still the same spell and has been said the new dwarf Rune stops the spell from being cast again. At no point does it actually force you to lose the spell, just that you can't cast it.
     
  8. eppe
    Kroxigor

    eppe Member

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    When a Dwarf stacks two Runes of Spellbreaking (dispel scroll rune) it becomes the buffed version which has two rules.


    On the roll of a 4+ the following happens.

    A. The wizard loses that spell.
    Kroak's rules ensure he relearns the spell so this section is moot.

    B. The wizard is unable to cast that spell for the rest of the game.
    This is the catch. I feel like the RAI of Kroak is for this not to apply, but RAW seems to indicate he'd be shut down for the rest of the game. It seems like this Rune was intended more for us trying to swap back to a key spell via High Magic's trait.
     
  9. eppe
    Kroxigor

    eppe Member

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    I really like running Lord Kroak and the Bomb List and a friend plays Dwarfs so basically on a 4+ my list stops working.
     
  10. Screamer
    Temple Guard

    Screamer Member

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    on the other hand, kroak also has a rule that says he can cast DoI as many times as he wants to, as long as there's sufficient power-dices...

    It just feels wrong that some pesky dwarf rune would shut down a toad of the first generation spawning.
     
  11. eppe
    Kroxigor

    eppe Member

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    That rule is just to ensure you can cast the spell more than once. For example it doesn't allow you to cast if you suffer from Broken Concentration.
     
  12. Screamer
    Temple Guard

    Screamer Member

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    Why not? I don't have the BrB here, but I don't remember it saying anything that contradicts the "army-book trumps BrB"-rule
     
  13. T_Saurus
    Cold One

    T_Saurus Member

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    LM Army book p 52
    Hmm does that override
    BRB p. 32
    I foresee opponents having contention with this interpretation...

    Opponent: Haha! Lost concentration on to shooting...

    LM Player: Hmm actually I still have dice so I am going to cast The Deliverance of Itza again...

    Opponent: But...you are unable to cast more spells for the rest of the Magic phase...

    LM Player: ALL BOW BEFORE HYPNOKROAK!
     
  14. Screamer
    Temple Guard

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    If that's what the BrB says, I would say it's perfectly clear that Kroak can't lose concentration.

    Nothing in the BrB says that says otherwise, clear cut conflict and AB trumps BrB... QED!

    Nice!!
     
  15. T_Saurus
    Cold One

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    It could potentially be argued this way. I would never play it personally unless an FAQ comes out in support.
     
  16. eppe
    Kroxigor

    eppe Member

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    I play Kroak alot and I don't play him this way. I forget what the casting cost is off hand but you could just roll 1 die and hope for that high roll every time to get more shots at it. Until it gets a FAQ, which I feel we really should have by now, I wont play it this way.


    On the FAQ point how long does it really take to put out a FAQ. I'm not asking for an errata to change rules, just a FAQ to clarify stuff.
     
  17. T_Saurus
    Cold One

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    In the past we have seen FAQs in a couple of months...It's going on 10 months now and there is speculation that no new FAQ will be coming due to 9th edition being rumored to be released this year.
     
  18. Sleboda
    Troglodon

    Sleboda Active Member

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    FWIW, I agree with those who say that nothing in the Lizardmen book is an actual contradiction to Loss of Concentration.

    Sure, Kroak can keep casting his spell as long as he has dice, but if there is something preventing the act of casting, it doesn't matter how many times you are allowed to cast, since you cannot cast at all.
     
  19. eppe
    Kroxigor

    eppe Member

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    It's a grey area. If I apply the wording of the rule for Kroak's casting directly to Loss of Concentration a case can be made that he can always keep casting. I don't think it's correct but the case can be made. That is why we need a FAQ.


    I know the new BRB is rumored to be out this year but I really don't see how ambiguous rules in our book will be resolved by a new BRB. I doubt that the LM book will be directly referenced in the BRB, since they rarely do that, so the questions we have about certain rules will still remain.
     
  20. Eladimir
    Salamander

    Eladimir New Member

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    I personally would play that Kroak can lose concentration just like any other wizard. To me the wording of can cast it as many times as he likes is specifically overrulling the normal one cast per spell per turn rule. Not all other magic rules.

    As for the dwarf spell breaking the wording on Kroaks ability is a whole spam of "you can't get rid of this spell" so RAI I definitely feel like Kroak should be allowed to continue.
     

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