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8th Ed. Lore of Death? death indeed...

Discussion in 'Rules Help' started by Raithial, Jun 26, 2011.

  1. Raithial
    Saurus

    Raithial New Member

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    Recently I played a second game in which someone used the Lore of Death... And it was plainly unfair...
    We had a scenario similar to Last stand, from 7th ed. book. My Lizardmen had 4500 points on their side, and the opponent (skaven/ogres allied) had 2250 points, with some items from the common rulebook.
    The ogres had a Wizarding Hat, or how that is called, and by a twist of fate they ended up with the vortex of doom called "The Purple Sun of Xerxeus"
    That Thing wrecked 8 of my 14 CoC and wrecked 18 of 1 (size 24) regiment of Saurus Warriors, and a handfull of skinks, and all my Kroxigors...
    Sorry, Games Workshop, but I am soooo calling this spell OVERPOWERED.
    it was a single spell that did all of this in a single turn, it just doesn't sit right with me... I also play high elves, so I am fully aware that that would be practically a spit-ball against them, so I know they call it "Balanced" but even so, it is basically a vortex of Strength 9 or something, against a common Saurus Warrior, and S7 against a CoC...

    And they don't need to tell me that it is "Balanced", because it is not, not against ogres, or high elves, and definitely not against Lizardmen.... what is your thoughts on this spell...?
     
  2. Leokill27
    Razordon

    Leokill27 New Member

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    My games group banned Purple sun. Its simple, tell your friends it certainly does penalize lizardmen, and that you wont be willing to play against it. Im sure they'll understand how OP it is
     
  3. Raithial
    Saurus

    Raithial New Member

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    my group is a bit less co-operative... they thought about changing it a bit, insted making it a 3+ for a kill on anything... but that still leaves such a devastation...but I will bring it up. thanks
     
  4. Leokill27
    Razordon

    Leokill27 New Member

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    Well, ask to change it to more of a pit of shades mechainic. A stationary template rather than a sweeping army killer
     
  5. Cravenus
    Cold One

    Cravenus New Member

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    wow, maybe we should ban dwellers below when used against a low strengtharmy? or any other characteristic test on low stat armies.


    That's why you take magic defense guys(cube of darkness anyone?) to counter spells like that.
    banning or changing it seems a little harsh.
     
  6. Benny6Toes
    Saurus

    Benny6Toes New Member

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    one turn? how were you deployed that it was able to hit three units like that? he must have made it to a flank, no?
     
  7. strewart
    OldBlood

    strewart Well-Known Member

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    Well I partially agree with Cravenus, you do need to be aware that spells like that will be thrown about and try to dispel them or kill the wizard at all costs. However, sometimes the spell getting off is inevitable (irresistable or very good roll for power level) and I definitely do agree that it is overpowered.

    In my gaming group, we have gone to the step of banning all level 6 spells since a lot of them are quite insane. It still leaves 6 spells available since there is the core one for the lore, and has in general created much more fun games for us. When I had a High Elve archmage with book of Hoeth I tried to get dwellers off every turn, it was effective even if it usually only work 2-3 times per game maximum but it was really not much fun. Since getting rid of it, I am looking to all the other spells in the lore and we are enjoying a much more tactical and fun magic phase.

    You want to steer clear of Storm of Magic if you don't like purple sun though. Apparently, there is a spell in there somewhere that requires you to roll a dice for every single model in your army, and on a 1-3 they are dead, so it will wipe out half your army in one go. I dislike 'uber' stuff like that very much.
     
  8. Raithial
    Saurus

    Raithial New Member

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    True, banning or changing it might seem harsh, but there is literally no other army that is as disadvantageous against any spell like Lizardmen are against the vortex spell from Death. Seriously, 60% of our core-points had Initiative 1 for crying out loud! I do certainly believe that Games-workshop has some balancing issues with their spells against some armies.
    I mean, breaking an entire army in a single spell is just too damn powerfull. It's quickly steering now towards a Magic-hammer game, instead of Warhammer. If this keeps up I might as well just field 25% core, 25% specials and 50% in F***ing mages! Especially with the Storm of magic making things even more towards that.
    I mean, pretty soon everyone will just be taking core and a few specials to fill it up, and then just blast each other with mages, if that's the way this game is gonna go, I'm gonna stick with 8th vanilla.
    sure, I have two of the most magic-dominant armies in Warhammer, but I don't even like magic that much. High Elves I like because their a versatile, and have tremendous tactical capability, and Lizardmen have those amazingly sturdy blocks of cold blooded Saurus, and jittery Skinks.


    Ogre Butcher joined a group of bulls, pushing forward in my flank. Ever tried to stop 9 bulls and 1 butcher? and the moment I pinned him down, he throws that ball of destruction my way, and by a throw of the dice, it went diagonally towards my slann, and it was barely beside my Slann, because my slann was barely behind some Ironguts, and he didn't want to damage his own troops...

    My point exactly. but then my main opponent likes them so much, he gets as many spells like that as he can, and he is relentlessly trying to throw them. My own behaviour on the battlefield is always fair, always streight forward, and I don't use those overpowered spell. Usually I steer clear of Lore of Death all together for the same purpose; I don't like the overpowered ending-spell... Skaven's 13th spell and Lore of Metal's Final Transmutation also, I NEVER used. (skaven's 13th spell, duhh) I only used the Dwellers once, and I found it completely unfair and lifted the spell after I saw what it did. I was like "Wait, rewind that, put those models back, that was an unfair, sorry for that." Since then I sticked to stuff like Regrowth and Flesh to Stone, which is also awesome, and it only stays 1 turn.
     
  9. strewart
    OldBlood

    strewart Well-Known Member

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    For a long time I enjoyed taking a magic free High Elf army, only a level 1 for dispelling purposes and to try to throw out a drain magic once per game or something. Was definitely a fun army, I also dislike magic with everything except undead. However, with LM it is too irresistable to take a Slann, my magic with them is decent. Sounds like you take a Slann as well, you might as well try to outmagic him. You need to either combat the magic with powerful magic and defence of your own, or come to an agreement to not use those spells. Its no fun getting mashed by the spell every game, but one of you need to adapt and change. Worth discussing a solution, but since the spell is game legal if it comes down to a no compromise you will have to ither step up the magic yourself or find a different opponent.
     
  10. Raithial
    Saurus

    Raithial New Member

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    okay, now you've got my attention :3
    then what would you suggest? 1 slann, 3 skink priests(amongst which 1 prophet), and start casting all kinds of spells? I usually prefer to take just 2 cheap skink priest with dispell scroll and a similar item, and run around wrecking stuff with a Carnosaur-saurus-lord, in some cases even Kroq-gar himself, and using Chakax as a champ-basher...
    I love the sturdy Saurus, the mighty Cold One and Terrible Carnosaur. That's why I started playing, I can't help it but wish the Saurus would get more diversity, because currently, there are roughly 3 types of regiments for saurus; CoC, Saurus Warriors and Temple Guards.. (not including heroes and Lords)
    I do have enough skinks to basically, outnumber a skaven army, but in short that was 7th edition, and the previous Lizardmen, and they were for my Southlands army... I do like the fact they returned the "Cohorts", mixed Skink/krox units.
    what would your advice be, since I've got All kinds of heroes, (literally, every character 1 model) and enough different troops to field 6000 points (not including heroes/lords) Only thing I don't have, are Terradons (I know, stupid me T^T)
     
  11. Leokill27
    Razordon

    Leokill27 New Member

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    This is quite an interesting topic. I think I agree with strewart, I will bring up banning all 6 level spells in my group. For the sake of fairness

    About dwellers though. No model that I know of that can comprise a big and important part of an army has strength 1 and coupled with the fact that dwellers is only on one unit, I feel it is a much more tame spell.
     
  12. MI_Tiger
    Temple Guard

    MI_Tiger Member

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    Considering the way 8th Edition magic works, you don't gain much by adding more Priests. Since you are limited to 2D6 Power Dice, more wizards = more spells that you don't have any chance of casting.

    I normally find that the Slann can use all the available PD by himself. So I usually run a Slann plus a single Level 1 Priest, who's job is to provide some ranged protection early (with Iceshard) and carry a dispel scroll/Cube of Darkness. Much more than this just seems a waste of points.
     
  13. Idura
    Saurus

    Idura New Member

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    Problem is that it depends alot on what army you play against... Since this is 8th edition and the nice steadfast rules encourage people to bring bigger and bigger blocks of crap to the table. If you play ~2000p it might be fine but when you step up and start playing above 3000p the blocks tend to get bigger and bigger... I play against a pure night goblin army, a high elves army and another orcs and goblin army quite often and it really doesnt seem fair to eradicate those big 50model blocks with a simple spell.

    The best part of dwellers is the character sniping aspect, you not only kill ~half the block but you give all the characters and mages hiding in the unit a 50/50 chance of sudden death without save. I don't like that either :). If you still want to play with dwellers, at least allow the characters a LOS save :).

    In our playgroup we're still debating how we stand on the big badass-spells. Personally i refuse to play against pit of Shades and purple sun, and i never use dwellers either in return. I tolerate the night goblin template attack since its a random characteristic test and it only cause 1 wound which can be saved by ward save... Nightgoblins tend to eat bad mushrooms against me anyway :p. In my opinion the top spells should be like chain lightning or Gorks warpath, they can cause massive mayhem but are still controlled not to go over the top...
     
  14. Arli
    Skink Priest

    Arli Moderator Staff Member

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    I generally run a slann and two priests. One priest will have a scroll (or cube) and the other will have the forbidden rod. That item is essential to completely owning a poor winds of magic roll. I also take the ward save vs the first wound (4+). That way, if he takes 2 wounds, I can save one of them (maybe). If he does not make it, so be it, that is what he is there for.
     
  15. Cravenus
    Cold One

    Cravenus New Member

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    Dwarves and Ogres come to mind right off the hop for I1/2 armies. Undead might too.
     
  16. MI_Tiger
    Temple Guard

    MI_Tiger Member

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    Ocrs are all Init 2 also. Its better than Saurus, but not by much.
     
  17. thesheepnoob66
    Skink

    thesheepnoob66 New Member

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    well a mention should go to the lore of shadow as well

    (signature spell) Melkoths mystifying miasma: reduces d3 of BS,WS,I or M on a 5+ the increased 10+ reduces
    all of the above characteristics by d3 till the casters next magic phase

    1)steed of shadows: its okay just gives a character fly
    2)The enfeebling foe: remains in play units strength is reduced by d3
    3)The withering: reduces targets toughness by d3
    4)The Penumbral pendulam: a 6d6 line (as bouncing a cannonball when touches a unit) must pass an initiative test or suffer S10 Multiple wounds d3 which can hit anything on a board (pretty much)
    5)Pit of shades: the purple sun that dosen't remaain in play (basically)
    6)Okkams mindrazor: on an 18+ a unit gets to exchange their Ld with their strength (S8 saurus :chicken: )
    and lore attribute get to swap places with a character within 18"
    this tears us apart or really helps us but is OP definitly
     
  18. Leokill27
    Razordon

    Leokill27 New Member

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    Well, you way ogres and Orcs have I2 fair enough, but look at it this way. With saurus 1 in 6 will survive, whereas with I2 1 third of the unit will survive. That's a damn sight better in my opinion :p
     
  19. kroxigor01
    Ripperdactil

    kroxigor01 Member

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    A few things I have heard about (have not convinced anyone to change yet) that can balance this:

    1. While a double 6 is still a Miscast, you need a triple 6 for it to be Irresistable Force (also, ban Power Scrolls)

    2. Characters get Look Out Sir against all spells (except the Death magic assassination ones: Spirit Leech, Caress of Laniph and Fate of Bjuna).

    3. Dwellers, Purple Sun and Final Transmutation are forgotten after their first attempted casting. A one off nuke brings some tactics into these big spells. They still do a lot, but if its your crutch your probably going to get burned.

    Personally I think Okkam's is fine, as long as the wizard doesn't have the Power Scroll or Book of Hoeth. Its not garenteed to go off, but the opponent has to be in combat in the magic phase to really benifit from it.

    All these are fine: Chain Lightning, Comet, Flame Storm (lol), Transformation of Kadon (except for Forbidden Lore Vampire spam), Banishment (except Forbidden Lore Vampire Spam, actually yeah, ban having multiple wizards with Loremaster as well) and Throne of Vines (as long as you nerf Dwellers).

    The only thing potentially rediculous would be Pit of Shades? And this is only really a problem for Lizardmen ( :depressed: ) and low initiative monsters. Seems a lot tamer doesn't it.
     
  20. thesheepnoob66
    Skink

    thesheepnoob66 New Member

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    oh I also thought of a bitchy combination in storms of magic (4 power dice)
    if cast on one unit for example temple guard statline would be
    M Ws Bs S T W I A Ld
    8 10 0 8 8 1 10 3 8*

    on this unit you cast
    1)okkams mindrazor
    2)the speed of light
    On the wizard,
    3) throne of vines
    on the unit again
    4)flesh to stone
    (with enough power dice left)
    5) birona time warp
    for lizzys this can be done in 3300pts with 3 slaan with focus of mystery
     

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