8th Ed. Plague of Rust: Who is effected when cast on a unit + character (and the character leaves the unit)?

[NIGHTBRINGER]

This question spawned out of the following question on a Chaos Dwarf tactica thread (quoted below).

I have a question for you guys about the Lore of Hashut spelll Dark Subjugation:
View attachment 53280


Assume that you have successfully cast the spell on a unit containing the enemy general in it and they fail their leadership test (at -3). They now suffer a permanent -1 to their leadership for the remainder of the game. Here is my question, what happens if the general then leaves the unit? We have the following possibilities:

• Both the general and the unit still count as having -1 leadership for the rest of the game
• Only the unit counts as having -1 leadership for the rest of the game, but the general reverts to his normal leadership
• Only the general counts as having -1 leadership for the rest of the game, but the unit reverts to their normal leadership (this seemly highly improbable)

On page 97 of the BRB we have:

"When a character joins a unit that is under the effect of a spell that affects the entire unit, the character only benefits or suffers from the effects of the spell whilst he remains in the unit. Similarly, if a character is the subject of a spell that is capable of affecting a unit, the effect will also apply to any unit he joins, for as long as he remains part of it, and the spell lasts."


This doesn't quite apply to a situation where the character is already in the unit when the spell is cast. That BRB reference is speaking of a character joining a unit that is already under the effect of a spell (so the spell didn't include him as a target when it was originally cast). In the scenario I posted above, the character is part of the target of the spell when it is cast.


This same question applies equally to the Lore of Metal Spell Plague of Rust.

Any rule/page references would be greatly appreciated!

@Scalenex @Chicken Lips @airjamy @Killer Angel @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl @Lord-Marcus

I would lean towards

"Only the unit counts as having -1 leadership for the rest of the game, but the general reverts to his normal leadership"

But I do not feel strongly enough that I would make a big deal about it if my opponent disagreed. If it became a sticking point I would be okay caving to whatever the Chaos Dwarf player thinks it is for the game and then discuss the minutae of it later.



Going into that would derail this thread as a Chaos Dwarf tactica. Repost your question there and I'd be happy to put in my two cents.

@Scalenex : you have me intrigued. I was certain that the same ruling would apply to Plague of Rust as it does to Dark Subjugation. Both are hex spells that apply a permanent effect on the enemy.

How should the spell interaction with the unit + character be played in the case of Plague of Rust? And if played differently from Dark Subjugation, why?

 

[Scalenex]

I would say that a character would still have his/her armor save penalized after leaving a unit hit by Plague of Rust. It was a physical affliction.

A character leaving a unit hit by Dark Subjugation would regain his Ld in my opinion. The psychological effect was centered on the group. Chaos Dwarfs are all about subjugating groups. Once outside the unit the character should be free of the mass panic caused by the magically cursed groupthink.

On the same token a character joining that unit would gain the pyschological affliction whilst a character joining a Plague of Rust unit would not gain the physical affliction.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I would say that a character would still have his/her armor save penalized after leaving a unit hit by Plague of Rust. It was a physical affliction.

A character leaving a unit hit by Dark Subjugation would regain his Ld in my opinion. The psychological effect was centered on the group. Chaos Dwarfs are all about subjugating groups. Once outside the unit the character should be free of hte mass panic caused by the magically cursed groupthink.

On the same token a character joining that unit would gain the pyschological affliction whilst a character joining a Plague of Rust unit would not gain the physical affliction.

Interesting. To me, rules-wise, the effect of Dark Subjugation is no different than Plague of Rust. Both are hex spells that impart a permanent debuff. Fluff-wise I can understand your differentiation, but rules-wise they seem like they should behave in the exact same manner.

It's a tricky one!

 

[Killer Angel]

As I've said in the other thread, i tend to believe that the character is affected by the permanent debuff, even if it leaves the unit.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

It would seem logical that anyone in a unit with the spell cast on them are affected until the spell is dispelled or (as in Plague of Rust) permanently.

They were all hit by the spell, so are all affected even if someone tries to weasel out of it by leaving the unit.

I'm pretty sure there's something in the BRB on this, I'll check it out.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I think you're both right to a degree.

In the BRB, under Characters and Units, subheading Spells:

When a character joins a unit that is under the effect of a spell that affects the entire unit, the character only benefits or suffers from the effects of the spell whilst he remains in the unit. Similarly, if a charcyer is the subject of a spell that is capable of affecting a unit, the effect will also apply to any unit he joins, for as long as he remains part of it, and the spell lasts.

I think the key statement is the last bit "and the spell lasts.

Plague of Rust is not remains in play. It just affects everything in the target unit. So anyone there at time of casting is affected permanently.

It would be the same with Dark Subjugation. The spell isn't remain in play but causes a permanent effect.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I think you're both right to a degree.

In the BRB, under Characters and Units, subheading Spells:

When a character joins a unit that is under the effect of a spell that affects the entire unit, the character only benefits or suffers from the effects of the spell whilst he remains in the unit. Similarly, if a charcyer is the subject of a spell that is capable of affecting a unit, the effect will also apply to any unit he joins, for as long as he remains part of it, and the spell lasts.

I think the key statement is the last bit "and the spell lasts.

Plague of Rust is not remains in play. It just affects everything in the target unit. So anyone there at time of casting is affected permanently.

It would be the same with Dark Subjugation. The spell isn't remain in play but causes a permanent effect.

This might be of interest. This is (in my opinion) the best interpretation: http://www.lustria-online.com/threa...-paper-scissors-chart.9489/page-2#post-272403