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8th Ed. Proposed 8.1 Fixes

Discussion in 'House Rules' started by Scalenex, Jul 21, 2015.

  1. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    The goal is to take 8th edition mostly intact, only make it more balanced. This is a "living document", feel free to make suggestions or criticisms.

    If something is too powerful or too weak I'd rather tweak the points cost then change rules left and right. It's important to give every army some candy. No army should only have things go up in price.

    Presumably if we get a general consensus on Lustria-Online we could send it to our sister websites and hear them pick it apart--I mean negotiate particulars.

    It's a lot easier to make a draft when I know the army well and it has an 8th edition handbook, like Dwarves, Empire, and Vampire Counts. I can get around to making a High Elf or Warrior of Chaos list, but I don't feel comfortable drafting any other, maybe Orcs and Goblins.



    Everyone

    Ward saves apply against all magic spells and against miscast damage. This includes Magic Resistance.

    Line template attacks that strike a character riding a monster are randomized between the rider and monster (1-4 monster, 5-6 rider).

    If a circular template differentiates between the center hole and the base template and a character riding a monster is hit by the center hole, the extra strength hit is randomized between the rider and monster (1-4 monster, 5-6 rider). The the character or rider still takes the regular template hit if they avoid the center hit.

    Taking a non-magical ranged weapon upgrade does not preclude any character from taking a non-magical hand weapon upgrade even if it says “one of the following”.

    Lizardmen

    Predatory Fighter applies to supporting attacks.

    Magic Items
    Reduce cost of Horn of Kygor by 15 points.
    Reduce the cost of the Jaguar Standard by 15 points
    Make it clear that the Sacred Stegadon Helm of Itza and Piranha Blade stack
    Reclassify the Plaque of Dominion as an Enchanted Item and reduce cost by 5 points

    Slann Mage Priests

    Add
    Focused Ferocity: Predatory Fighter units joined by a Slann may always test to restrain pursuit as if the Slann were a Skink character. This does not apply to other units within six inches of the Slann. If a Slann gains Fear or Terror, the Slann’s unit is considered to possess Fear or Terror. (Slann special characters get this too.)

    Note this will make Harrowing Scrutiny reasonable

    Raise cost of Becalming Cognition by 5 points
    Reduce Cost of Transcendent Healing by 5 points
    Reduce cost of Higher State of Consciousness by 5 points

    Saurus Oldblood
    Reduce cost of spear to 3 points.
    Reduce base cost of Carnosaur by 15 points
    Raise cost of Cold One by 10 points

    Saurus Scar Veteran
    Reduce cost of spear by 2 point
    Reduce cost of Carnosaur by 15 points
    Raise cost of Cold One by 10 points

    Skink Chief
    Add
    Beast Kinship: A Skink Chief mounted on a Terradon may join a unit of Terradon riders. A Skink Chief mounted on a Ripperdactyl may join a unit of Ripperdactyl riders. Mounted Skink Chiefs may not join any other unit.

    Skink Priest
    Unchanged

    Saurus Warriors
    Reduce cost by 0.5 points per model
    Add “one unit of Saurus Warriors per army may take a magic standard worth up to 25 points).

    Skink Cohort
    Reduce base cost of Kroxigor by 5 points.
    Raise the minimum ratio of Skinks to Kroxigor to 10 to 1. (army list building only obviously, Skroxigor don't have to disband if the Skinks die disproportionately fast.)

    Skink Skirmishers
    Reduce the base cost by one point per model
    Raise the cost of the Javelins and Shield upgrade from free to 1 point per model

    Temple Guard
    Unchanged

    Jungle Swarms
    Reduce cost by 5 points per model

    Chameleon Skinks
    Reduce cost by 1 point per model

    Cold One Riders
    Reduce base cost by 1 point per model
    Reduce costs of Spear upgrade by 2 points per model
    May take a magic banner worth up to 50 points

    Kroxigor
    Reduce base cost by 5 points

    Terradon Riders
    Make optional swap to Fireleech bolas free

    Stegadon
    Unchanged

    Bastiladon
    reduce base cost by 15 points
    Solar Engine costs 15 points. Ark of Sotek remains free

    Ripperdactyl
    Raise Ripperdactyl’s base Ld stat by one point

    Ancient Stegadon
    Reduce cost of Engine of the Gods upgrade by 10 points

    Salamander Hunting Pack
    Unchanged

    Razordon Hunting Pack
    Add 3 points to the base cost
    Ranged attack gains armor piercing

    Troglodon
    Reduce cost by 40 points

    Mazdamundi
    Raise Leadership score to 10

    Add to rules
    Greatest living caster: Mazdamundi is treated as a 5th level caster


    Lord Kroak
    Add 10 points to the base cost

    Kroq-Gar
    Reduce base cost by 30 points

    Chakax
    Reduce base cost by 25 points

    Gor-rok
    Unchanged

    Tetto’eko
    Raise Ld by one point
    Raise base cost by 30 points

    Tik’tak’to
    Reduce base cost by 15 points
    Change name to something less stupid. Teploq means death from the skies and sounds close enough to the original name

    Oxyotl
    Add Hates Daemons
    Reduce base cost by 10 points (so he costs the same as 10 Chameleon Skinks)

    Empire

    Reduce cost of Griffon Banner by 10 points
    Reduce cost of Mace of Helsturm by 5 points
    Reduce cost of the White Cloak of Ulric by 5 points
    Reduce cost of Ring of Volans by 5 points

    General of the Empire
    Reduce cost by 5 points

    Grand Master, Battle Wizard Lord, Arch Lector
    Unchanged

    Master Engineer
    Half the cost of all weapon upgrades (since they can’t be used while aiding a warmachine).
    Reduce cost of mechanical horse by 5 points

    Captain, Battle Wizard, Warrior Priest, Witch Hunter
    Unchanged

    Halbrediers
    Shield upgrades reduced to 0.5 points per model

    Spearmen
    Shield upgrades reduced to 0.5 points per model

    Swordsmen
    Cost reduced by 0.5 per model

    Crosswbowmen
    Cost reduced by 1 point per model

    Hangunners
    Cost reduced by 1 point per model

    Archers
    Unchanged

    Free Company Militia
    Cost reduced by 0.5 per model

    Knightly Orders
    Unchanged

    Great Swords
    Unchanged

    Demigryph Knights
    Increase cost by 7 points per model

    Reiksguard Knights
    Unchanged

    Huntsmen
    Reduce cost by 0.5 points per model

    Pistoliers
    Reduce cost by 2 point per model

    Outriders
    Reduce cost by 1 point per model

    Great Cannon
    Raise cost by 30 points per model

    Mortar
    Reduce base cost by 5 points per model

    Flagellants
    Reduce cost by 1 point per model

    Hellblaster Volley Gun
    Unchanged

    Helstrom Rocket Battery
    Reduce cost by 15 points

    Steam Tank
    Raise cost by 25 points

    Celestial Hurricanum
    Unchanged

    Luminark
    Reduce cost by 5 points

    Karl Franz, the Emperor
    Give the guy a shield. Ghal Maraz and the Reikland Runefang are both one handed weapons, and the emperor isn’t a moron.
    Reduce base cost by 10 points

    Kurt Helborg
    Give the guy a shield. The Solland Rundfang is a one handed weapon, and the Empire’s greatest general isn’t a moron.
    Reduce base cost by 10 points

    Balthasar Gelt
    Unchanged

    Volkmar the Grim
    Reduce base cost by 10 points.

    Marius Leitdorf
    Reduce base cost by 5 points

    Ludwig Schwarzhelm
    Give the guy a shield. The Sword of Justice is a one handed weapon, and the Emperor’s champion isn’t a moron.
    Reduce base cost by 5 points

    Luther Huss, Prophet of Sigmar
    Unchanged

    Markus Wulfhart, Huntsmarshal of the Empire
    Reduce base cost by 25 points--no 30 points, so someone might consider taking him


    Vampire Counts

    Vampiric Powers

    Reduce cost of Master of the Black Arts by 10 points
    Reduce cost of Curse of the Revenant by 5 points
    Reduce cost of Flying Horror by 10 points
    Reduce cost of Dark Acolyte by 5 points
    Reduce cost of Supernatural Terror by 5 points
    Reduce Cost of Master Strike by 10 points

    Vampire Lord
    Raise base cost by 10 points per model
    Reduce cost Additional Hand Weapon by 1 point
    Reduce cost of Great Weapon by 2 points
    Reduce cost of Lance by 2 points
    Reduce cost of Zombie Dragon by 20 points
    Reduce cost of Abyssal Terror by 10 points

    Master Necromancer
    Reduce Cost of Master of the Dead by 5 points, still limited to one per army
    Reduce cost of Abyssal Terror by 10 points

    Strigoi Ghoul King
    Unchanged

    Necromancer
    Reduce Cost of Master of the Dead by 5 points, still limited to one per army

    Vampire
    Reduce cost Additional Hand Weapon by 1 point
    Reduce cost of Great Weapon by 2 points
    Reduce cost of Lance by 2 points

    Wight King, Cairn Wraith, Tomb Banshee
    Unchanged

    Zombies
    Unchanged

    Skeletons
    Reduce base cost by 0.5 points per model

    Ghouls
    Reduce base cost by 0.5 points per model
    Add a standard bearer option for 10 points (no magic options)

    Dire Wolves
    Unchanged

    Zombies
    Unchanged (did I already list them? Oh no the zombies are spreading THE END IS NEAR!)

    Corpse Cart
    Reduce cost by 5 points per model. This carries over to characters taking Corpse Carts as a mount option

    Grave Guard
    Reduce base cost by 1 point per model
    Raise cost of upgrading to great weapons by 1 point per model
    Goal is to make people stop looking at sword and board as the crappy option

    Crypt Horrors
    Raise cost by 2 points per model

    Fell Bats
    Reduce cost by 1 point per model

    Bat Swarms
    Reduce cost by 10 points swarm base

    Spirit Host
    Raise cost by 5 points per swarm base

    Black Knights, Hex Wraiths Vargheists
    Unchanged

    Varghulf
    Reduce points cost by 5 points

    Blood Knights
    Reduce cost of base unit by 5 points per model
    Reduce cost of the Flag of Blood Keep by 15 points

    Cairn Wraith
    Reduce cost of base unit by 5 points per model

    Black Coach
    Reduce cost by 10 points

    Terrorgheist, Mortis Engine
    Unchanged

    Dwarves

    Lord
    Lower of the cost of crossbows and handguns by 2 points each
    Lower base cost by 5 points

    Runelord
    Lower base cost by 10 points
    Lower cost for Anvil of Doom by 70 points--nah 80 points

    Daemon Slayer
    Lower base cost by 10 points

    Thane, Master Engineer
    Unchanged

    Dragon Slayer
    Reduce base cost by 5 points

    Dwarf Warriors
    Unchanged

    Dwarf Quarrelers
    Reduce base cost by 0.5 points

    Thunderers
    Reduce base cost by 1 point

    Longbeards
    Unchanged

    Cannon
    Raise base cost by 30 points
    This puts an un-runed Dwarf cannon on par with the points cost Empire cannons even though the Dwarves’ are slightly better (more T, WS, and BS). This is an army edge

    Gyrocopter
    Raise cost by 10 points
    Remove restriction that only half Gyrocopters may buy the Vanguard upgrade

    Bolt Thrower
    Lower base cost by 5 points

    Grudge Thrower
    Raise base cost by 10 points

    Hammerers, Ironbreakers, Slayers, Miners
    Unchanged

    Organ Gun
    Unchanged

    Flame Cannon
    Reduce base cost by 10 points per model

    Rangers
    Unchanged

    Irondrakes
    Unchanged

    Gyrobomber
    Reduce base cost by 5 points per model

    Thorgrim Grudgebearer
    Reduce base cost by 20 points

    Thorek Ironbrow
    Reduce base cost by 90 points
    Yes, he’s that bad in RAW

    Ungrim Ironfist
    Reduce base cost by 10 points

    Belegar Ironhammer
    Reduce base cost by 25 points

    Josef Bugman, Grim Burloksson
    Unchanged
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2015
    ASSASSIN_NR_1 and Ixt like this.
  2. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    High Elves

    Reduce cost of Blade of Leaping Gold by 10 points
    Reduce cost of Armor of Caledor by 5 points
    Reduce cost of Shadow armor by 5 points

    Reduce cost of Gem of Sunfire by 5 points, change the first sentence to "Activate at the start of any turn, one use only." for clarity

    Raise cost of Book of Hoeth by 5 points

    Banner of the World Dragon
    Change the ward save bestowed to 3+
    I wanted to just raise the price but then I realized this item would have become BSB only completely ruining it.


    Prince
    Reduce base cost by 10 points
    Reduce the cost of lance by 2 points
    Reduce the cost of all other mundane weapons by 1 point
    Reduce the cost of all dragon mounts by 15 points
    Reduce cost of Tiranoc Chariot mount by 5 points


    Archmage
    Reduce the cost of all dragon mounts by 15 points
    Reduce cost of Tiranoc Chariot mount by 5 points

    Annointed of Assuryan
    Lower the cost of Flamespyre Phoenix mount option by 25 points
    Raise the cost of Frostheart Pheonix mount option by 25 points

    Lore Master of Hoeth
    Reduce the base cost by 20 points

    Noble
    Reduce cost of lance by 2 points
    Reduce cost of spear and longbow by 1 point
    Reduce cost of Tiranoc Chariot mount by 5 points

    Mage
    Reduce cost of Tiranoc Chariot mount by 5 points

    Dragon Mage of Caledor
    Reduce base cost by 15 points

    Lothern Sea Helm
    Add “if a second leadership test is passed, the unit may make a stand and shoot if ordinarily able but at an additional -1 to hit (to reflect the penalty for moving)” to the naval discipline rules section.

    Handmaiden of the Everqueen
    Reduce base cost by 5 points

    Spearmen
    Reduce base cost by 0.5 points per model

    Archers
    Reduce base cost by 1 point per model

    Lothern Sea Guard
    Reduce base cost by 1 point per model

    Silver Helms
    Unchanged

    Ellyrian Reavers
    Unchanged

    Lion Chariot of Chrace
    Reduce base cost by 10 points, this applies to Korhil’s mount option as well

    White Lions of Chrace
    Raise base cost by 1 point per model

    Swordmasters of Hoeth
    Unchanged

    Shadow Warriors
    Reduce base cost by 1 point

    Phoenix Guard
    Unchanged

    Dragon Princes of Caledor
    Reduce base cost by 1 point per model

    Lothern Skycutter
    Add note to profile. As a model with Fly, Lothern Skycutters may make a march move unless a spell or effect causes them to lose Fly. This naturally still applies when a Skycutter is chosen as a character mount.

    Tiranoc Chariot
    Reduce base cost by 5 points per model, this carries over to all characters who can take Tiranoc Chariots as a mount.

    Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
    Move from Rare to Special

    Great Eagles
    Unchanged

    Flamespyre Phoenix
    Reduce base cost by 25 points

    Frostheart Pheonix
    Raise the base cost by 25 points

    Sisters of Averlorn
    Reduce base cost by 1 point

    Tyrion
    Unchanged

    Teclis
    Raise base cost by 5 points

    Eltharion the Grim
    Reduce base cost by 15 points
    Reduce cost of Stormwing by 5 points

    Alith Anar
    Add special rule “Loner: At army creation you may choose another character to be general even if Alith Anar’s leadership exceeds that of all other eligible characters. You must designate whether or not Alith Anar or a substitute is acting as general before deployment.”

    Alarielle the Radient
    Unchanged

    Korhil
    Reduce base cost by 10 points, reduce cost of lion chariot by 10 points\

    Caradryan
    Raise cost Ashtari by 25 points
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2015
  3. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    This too.
     
  4. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    This three
     
  5. ASSASSIN_NR_1
    Terradon

    ASSASSIN_NR_1 Well-Known Member

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    I could give High elves a shot, And the you could (Scalenex) pick what you think sounds good.
     
  6. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    You need to add that Lord Kroak and the Engine of the gods,
    hit ALL targets within range, even those in close combat
    and targets to the front, flank or rear.
     
    ASSASSIN_NR_1 likes this.
  7. ASSASSIN_NR_1
    Terradon

    ASSASSIN_NR_1 Well-Known Member

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    Does the ark of sotek need the same clarification?
     
  8. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    Nope, I already says it can fire into combat. :D
    (I think it specifies the front arc as well)
     
  9. lordkingcrow
    Temple Guard

    lordkingcrow Active Member

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    Considering that three of the four armies you've put on here are the armies I have (the fourth being the army I still want to make) I can only assume that you did this thinking about me. I think this is a pretty fair assessment of what needs to be fixed. I'm all on board for increasing the cost of cannons as well as going back to randomize what is hit.
     
  10. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    I'm mostly done with a draft of the High Elves. I played on both sides of them before they got the new book and played them a bit after. Also they have an 8th edition handbook which makes tweaking them easier. I just need to figure out what to do with SC and give the first draft another look. Then it's on to Warriors of Chaos. Then I'm out of 8th edition handbooks that clearly indicate which units suck and which are overpowered.

    I should be able to do Orcs and Goblins because I play them a lot, but I haven't played a wide breadth of them. There needs to be some incentive to take vanilla Orcs and Goblins. The norm seems to be Night Goblins over regular Goblins and Savage Orcs over regular Orcs (same with Savage Orc Boar cavalry).

    Orcs and Goblins are not a top tier army so I would be reluctant to raise any points costs. Giants and Snotling swarms definitely need to go down. Not sure about the rest.

    EDIT: High Elves now up.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2015
  11. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    maybe up the price of savage orcs and reduce price of regualr orcs? Like one points each maybe?
     
  12. ASSASSIN_NR_1
    Terradon

    ASSASSIN_NR_1 Well-Known Member

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    Alright, I will send you might thoughts tough.

    And with SC I think Tyrion should increase in points. I mean he can have 4 ws 9 strength 7 attacks and movement 10, an AS of 1 and a 4+ ward, his only weakness is that he is toughness 3, but that's an army weakness.
     
  13. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Hmm, I actually lowered his points cost based on his treatment on the Ulthuan 8th edition handbook.

    You have certainly convinced me not to lower the points cost but I'm not sure his cost should be raised. It's not uncommon to see Armor save 1+, Ward save 4+ characters. Movement 10 is not useable unless he deploys solo in which case he is an exposed target without a cavalry bus.

    P.S. The proposed HE list is up right now by the way.
     
  14. Putzfrau
    Troglodon

    Putzfrau Member

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    No change to carnosaur?

    Not a huge fan of the lizardmen changes. The point reductions/increases feel a little all over the place and not very reflective of what it does to the army. Example: Trog is simply not going to be good as is, unless its just stupidly cheap. The point decrease does nothing to make it more usable.

    It feels like the army would be weaker overall after these changes. More options on whats you can reasonably take, but much weaker.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2015
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  15. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    I was on the fence about whether or not to make Carnosaurs cheaper. I feared non-LM would look at the Lizardmen proposed changes with a magnifying glass, so I figured to be conservative with giving our scaly boys goodies.

    Also, Carnosaurs get a boost indirectly by making it harder to kill both mount and rider simultaneously with template shooting.
     
  16. Putzfrau
    Troglodon

    Putzfrau Member

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    That makes sense. I'll be honest, the more i read about all this 8.1/openhammer/ninth hammer stuff the more I'm disliking it.

    And i can't quite place why. Oh well. Either way, awesome work. This is very extensive and nothing really jumps out as being atrocious.
     
  17. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Not atrocious is high praise indeed. In any event I think your intial post holds wisdom and I slightly reduced the price of Carnosaurs and increased the discount o Troglodons a bit.
     
  18. Putzfrau
    Troglodon

    Putzfrau Member

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    Haha, that was the attempt even if it didn't come across in the best way :)
     
  19. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    The intent was clear. I have been a moderator long enough that I can speak Forumese pretty fluently.

    On an unrelated note. I am reconsidering the point increase on Scar Vets and Oldbloods. It's Cold Ones that the ETC limits. Maybe a modest increase in Cold One character mount costs.
     
  20. Putzfrau
    Troglodon

    Putzfrau Member

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    I think that sounds very reasonable.
     

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