8th Ed. Razordon Hunting Pack questions

[Kaleidoscope]

Hey all!

I've bought 6 of the buggers and I've got a few questions...

1) If a cannon hits a Razordon but the Razordon makes its 5+ "handler" save, does it stop the cannon ball or does the cannon ball carry on?

2) If a Razordon unit has two ranks of three (6 in total) do all handlers get to attack as a part of supporting attacks or do you only attack with the handlers of the Razordons in base to base?

3) If you lose a handler, regardless of which Razordon gets hit or eats its crew, do you take handlers from the back or do you have to keep track of how many handlers are around each Razordon? This matters for question 2.


Thanks all!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

1) If a cannon hits a Razordon but the Razordon makes its 5+ "handler" save, does it stop the cannon ball or does the cannon ball carry on?

The cannon ball would stop since the razordon (who is a monstrous beast) has not been slain (BRB p. 113).

2) If a Razordon unit has two ranks of three (6 in total) do all handlers get to attack as a part of supporting attacks or do you only attack with the handlers of the Razordons in base to base?

You only get to attack with the handlers belonging to the Razordons in base to base contact with the enemy. The BRB states: "In close combat, the handlers can direct their attacks against any enemy in base contact with their monster (BRB 73).

3) If you lose a handler, regardless of which Razordon gets hit or eats its crew, do you take handlers from the back or do you have to keep track of how many handlers are around each Razordon? This matters for question 2.

I think this question is a bit more tricky. I've always considered the handlers as belonging to the entire unit (but this is more of a grey area I believe; others may have different interpretations). I would remove the handlers from the razordons in the back or assume the ones in the back step up to fill the spot of their slain comrades (as is the case of any unit suffering wounds from shooting/magic). However, I can see how others may not agree with this, and I'm not sure if their is a clear cut answer. Can anyone confirm or dispute this?

Hope that helps

 

[Scalenex]

I disagree with Nightbringer's answers to questions two and three. Whether you have one Razordon or nine Razordons they use one collective set of handlers. More than once I've had single Salamanders with seven or eight handlers because other Salamanders in the group were killed by shooting.

Basically:

Salamanders and razordons are a bit silly by their rules as you ignore the handlers almost so that the handler models weren't even there. So the unit is just monstrous beast.

Handlers cannot be separated from their monster. Because they can't be separated or isolated in anyway, it is my understanding that every handler is a handler to every Razordon/Salamander. Otherwise it makes things cumbersome. If handlers in a unit of six Razordons are all assigned to specific Razordons, how do you roll a Monster Reaction chart for 2/3 of a single unit? You don't.

When Razordons/Sallies misfire they eat Skinks from the group collective, when you pass a handler save you lose Skinks from the group collective. Since the positioning of handlers is irrelevant for eligible charges, line of sight targeting, and template based attacks, it is also irrelevant which "rank" you pull handler casualties from. As long as you have one handler, every Razordon in that unit acts normally without a roll on the monster reaction chart. As long as you have at least one Razordon, every handler fights in close combat, ranks only manner for the actual Warbeasts.

To answer 2) every handler considers all Razordons "their" monster so as long as one Razordon is in base contact with the enemy, all 18+ handlers can attack.

3) Since handler positioning is just for decoration, it doesn't matter where you remove handlers from.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

After reading Scalenex's response, I must admit that I believe his explanation is correct. I never really considered what would happen if your unit was reduced to a singe Razor/Salamander with 5 or more handlers. My original explanation fails under this situation, while Scalenex's makes perfect sense. Disregard my answers to questions 2 & 3.

All hail Lord Scalenex!

 

[Scalenex]

Hmmm, Nightbringer liked a post where I told him he was wrong. Then called me Lord...We have a lot of smileys to choose from, but I need one with a swelled head.

 

[MasterKrox]

Depending on what faq your area uses both answers are right. The us masters faq says only the handlers for the monster in base can attack.

 

[n810]

Dang Scalenex, you beat me to it,
but yea he's completely right.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Hmmm, Nightbringer liked a post where I told him he was wrong. Then called me Lord...We have a lot of smileys to choose from, but I need one with a swelled head.

Hahaha, that's too funny. I have no problem admitting that I am wrong. It's better to admit one's error and learn something new, than blindly stumble along in ignorance!

 

[Agrem]

I agree what's been said above and as mentioned the rules for monsters and handlers are rather unclear.

Although one thing that just popped into my head when reading the unit entry of salamanders once again. It says that one pack of salamanders consists of 1 salamander and 3 or 4 handlers. So couldn't one argue that when one salamander/razordon is killed from a unit of multiple packs you should also remove appropriate number of handlers? The same happens with just a single model.

This would also indicate that the handlers are allocated by the salamander. However I think you should still treat them as a pool of handlers a bit same way as you would treat a unit of ogres which has taken couple of wounds and is hit by a cannon ball.

For example you have a unit of 4 salamanders that has lost a handler previously out of the 12, the unit is then shot/targeted by magic or whatever and kills one of the salamanders (no skinks saves are made) -> would or wouldn't you then lose two additional handler?

Then there wouldn't be a situation when there is a salamander with 8 handlers when the rules state that a pack is just 1+3. The maximum number of handlers on a unit of multiple packs would be the number of salamanders multiplied by 3 (or 4 if extra handlers were bought).

Hopefully you understood what I meant... thoughts?

BR
Agrem