Real world barbarians and fantasy barbarians

[Scalenex]

I'm building my own fantasy world (slowly) and I want mine to be realistic, so I'm looking at what barbarians logically can and can't do.

The term "barbarian" is based on Roman propaganda. All the non-Latin people sound like sheep when they talk so they are "ba-ba-barians."

In Rome (and many other cases) "barbarians" were just people less advanced than the person using the term "barbarian."

Let's look at the Vikings. They were technically civilized. They farmed and fished and had permanent settlements. Their lands were not very productive relative to the lands down south. Most of the raids were done in the Winter when there were no crops to tend. Also, what little farmland they had went to the first born male heir. The bulk of the professional raiders were non-inheriting men as that was one of the few mens left to them to get power, status, and mates. Because the Vikings came from a civilized land they could make their own weapons and armor.

WHF equivalent of Vikings very rarely farm. WHF handwave the likely lack of food in the Chaos Wastes. They get their forged items from Chaos Dwarves or Daemons and they probably loot their own dead, so weapons are rarely lost.

Lizardmen are not uncivilized either. They have just about all the fruits of civilization that the real-world Meso-Americans had except agriculture. We don't have to hand wave their food. Studies following one of the last nomadic people to be assimilated established that desert hunter/gatherers needed about six hours of work a day to get what they needed to support their families. That's less than a modern office worker. I n a lush jungle it would take even less time. I imagine Skinks would be good at hunting and gathering. To support larger cities they would need some sort of agriculture. Probably a pastoral system. It may SEEM like they are just hunting and gathering but I imagine the areas around cities have been tended enough to encourage an abundance of starchy nutrient rich plants. Fish hatcheries and the like are easy to envision. They are civilized by the modern definition of the world but most WHF races would label them as barbarians (at best).

Ogres aren't above stealing, but they also trade and culturally assimilate. There is no realism issue with their technology despite their nomadic lifestyle.

What about Beastmen and Orcs and Goblins? They don't farm and they certainly don't barter with the civilized world. WHF writers seem to hand wave that they steal pretty everything they have. Notice both races raid Humans primarily favor large axes. There are very few WHF Human minis that carry similar weapons to what Orcs and Beastmen use.

The closest real world equivalent to these guys (well greenskins anyway) would be the Mongols and the Huns. I know they were big on horses and the Goblin Wolf Riders were based on them highly. I know the Mongols were successful because they were excellent horsemen. I know most warriors had four-six steeds so they could switching mounts to cover ground quickly. I know they could milk their own steeds if food was scarce letting them live off grasslands. They were effective militarily because they effectively provided their own supply lines.

What I do not know is what kind of metallurgy the Mongols had. Realistically speaking, what is the highest level of metal goods that nomadic peoples can achieve without theft or trade? I really don't know. This carries over to Orcs and Goblins. As far as I can tell, they should ALL be Savage Orcs, just some are Savage Orcs with stolen metal gear. Assuming Black Orcs learned metal working from former Chaos Dwarf masters and that they retained their knowledge and assuming they could get other greenskins to follow directions, what is the best state of metal working they should be able to achieve?

This has bearing on my own fantasy world's monstrous barbarians.


On a slightly related topic, let's cover the other "barbarian" Force of Order: Wood Elves. Lets assume they didn't lose any technology when they broke off from Ulthuan. Let's assume that Elven craftsmanship means they don't need to replace worn out items very often. They are largely nomadic but they have permanent settlements too. Is it conceivable that they could mine a modest amount of ore without tearing up the forest? Or is it essentially almost literally "Unobtainium"

Again I want nature-ish Elves in my fantasy world too, but I want them to be quasi-realistic.

 

[hnkaj15414]

Notice both races raid Humans primarily favor large axes. There are very few WHF Human minis that carry similar weapons to what Orcs and Beastmen use.

The humans lack large axes because the orcs and beastmen took their large axes.

What I do not know is what kind of metallurgy the Mongols had. Realistically speaking, what is the highest level of metal goods that nomadic peoples can achieve without theft or trade?

A wizard did it. On a more relevant note, nomads would camp in one spot for a bit giving them time to set up a crude forge and were able to make simple iron weapons and horse shoes. The mongols had metal in the first place because the chinese gave them metal. So nomad metallurgy would not exist without outside forces to provide the raw materials .

Edit: No please! Not the wave-hand! its not a stretch to imagine WoC eating their kin or some random thing they killed and drinking their blood dark elf style. Im pretty sure their into that kind of stuff anyways.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

The closest real world equivalent to these guys (well greenskins anyway) would be the Mongols and the Huns. I know they were big on horses and the Goblin Wolf Riders were based on them highly

That is true, take a look at their special character Gitilla Da Hunter; sounds suspiciously close to Attila the Hun . Sort of like Scalenex and Scolenex

 

[Slanputin]

What I do not know is what kind of metallurgy the Mongols had. Realistically speaking, what is the highest level of metal goods that nomadic peoples can achieve without theft or trade? I really don't know. This carries over to Orcs and Goblins.This carries over to Orcs and Goblins. As far as I can tell, they should ALL be Savage Orcs, just some are Savage Orcs with stolen metal gear. Assuming Black Orcs learned metal working from former Chaos Dwarf masters and that they retained their knowledge and assuming they could get other greenskins to follow directions, what is the best state of metal working they should be able to achieve?

There's a few things I want to address on this post, but this one sticks out initially. To my mind, Orcs & Goblins represent a mosaic of different cultural systems which are unified by their shared race and love for a good fight, hence 'Savage Orcs', 'Forest Goblins', 'Night Goblins' etc. Considering that Black Orcs represent the higher echelons of Orcish culture, where they have enough intelligence to know armour and high quality weapons are needed to survive for longer, I don't think it's a stretch too see them develop even a crude form of metallurgy. Further to that, Orcs are shown to be more than just thieves, but industrious pragmatists who will use what materials they can to produce the desired effect (I find 40k Orks tend to have the best examples of this in terms of their mechs and aircraft, but Idols of Gork (or Mork) provide a useful fantasy example of being built of whatever material is to hand). I imagine their skills in metallurgy are also bolstered by this ability to kit bash.

Basing Orcs & Goblins back in the real-world examples you provided, the Mongols and Huns did have their own metal-smithys - whilst nomads based in pastoral farming, they settled for long enough to produce goods. The mining and refining of metals are what take the greatest amount of time and effort and, whilst the equipment to undertake refining can be easily created from crude materials, both the Mongols and the Huns favoured trade to bypass the process. However, even then it's been found the Mongols extensively mined the steppes. That being said, metal is easily re-used and as such helps to maneuver around issues regarding the supply of ore. The equipment for metal-work itself can made from base components (a holed-up fire and a stone anvil is all that's needed - possibly negating the need to have Orcs learn basic metallurgy skills from Chaos Dwarves, when drawing the comparison), and easily movable. Even then, nomadic tribes often moved in caravans which would provide opportunity to move any heavy technology around.

I think it'd be fairly easy for Black Orcs to whip up a crude anvil to smelt and work metal as needs be: you can create high quality knives from just working on a stone anvil, so the crude weapons of the Orcs aren't a stretch. Considering nomadic tribes aren't continuously moving anyway, and that the greater intelligence of Black Orcs could come with patience enough to perform basic metallurgy, I think the higher Orcish social echelons would have the ability to create the equipment as permitted by their fluff.

 

[n810]

You actually don't need a lot of equipment to smith metal.
https://smallhouseunderabigsky.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/poundingwithfire.jpg

 

[Scalenex]

Basing Orcs & Goblins back in the real-world examples you provided, the Mongols and Huns did have their own metal-smithys - whilst nomads based in pastoral farming, they settled for long enough to produce goods. The mining and refining of metals are what take the greatest amount of time and effort and, whilst the equipment to undertake refining can be easily created from crude materials, both the Mongols and the Huns favoured trade to bypass the process. However, even then it's been found the Mongols extensively mined the steppes. That being said, metal is easily re-used and as such helps to maneuver around issues regarding the supply of ore. The equipment for metal-work itself can made from base components (a holed-up fire and a stone anvil is all that's needed - possibly negating the need to have Orcs learn basic metallurgy skills from Chaos Dwarves, when drawing the comparison), and easily movable. Even then, nomadic tribes often moved in caravans which would provide opportunity to move any heavy technology around.

I think it'd be fairly easy for Black Orcs to whip up a crude anvil to smelt and work metal as needs be: you can create high quality knives from just working on a stone anvil, so the crude weapons of the Orcs aren't a stretch. Considering nomadic tribes aren't continuously moving anyway, and that the greater intelligence of Black Orcs could come with patience enough to perform basic metallurgy, I think the higher Orcish social echelons would have the ability to create the equipment as permitted by their fluff.

You actually don't need a lot of equipment to smith metal.
https://smallhouseunderabigsky.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/poundingwithfire.jpg

Okay so my Orcs, Kobolds, Goblins Gnolls, and Human barbarians in my D&D world can all make their own metal weapons without causing a suspension of disbelief, even if they don't have one of the two smithing gods as a patron (both sort of like Kobolds).

Now I just need to figure out my world map and figure out how to split things up between the civilized and uncivilized beings. Then I just stat out some spirits (servants of the gods) and I am set to run my D&D world and/or post the setting on L-O

 

[pendrake]

On a slightly related topic, let's cover the other "barbarian" Force of Order: Wood Elves. Lets assume they didn't lose any technology when they broke off from Ulthuan. Let's assume that Elven craftsmanship means they don't need to replace worn out items very often. They are largely nomadic but they have permanent settlements too. Is it conceivable that they could mine a modest amount of ore without tearing up the forest? Or is it essentially almost literally "Unobtainium"

Again I want nature-ish Elves in my fantasy world too, but I want them to be quasi-realistic.

You know that tree-singing spell that caused a stand of trees to scoot around on the table-top?

It wasn't originally invented for battlefield use.

With a couple of weeks to work that spell a few elf-mages could clear off a ridge line where a vein of ore is exposed. The tricky bit would be getting timber or something else to shore up a tunnel. Maybe elves only mine near the surface[?] But that's how they get ore without making a mess like humans or dwarves.