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Star Trek vs. Star Wars (and a collection of Lightsaber dueling videos)

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by NIGHTBRINGER, Apr 16, 2015.

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Star Trek or Star Wars; which do you like better?

  1. Star Trek

    9 vote(s)
    24.3%
  2. Star Wars

    28 vote(s)
    75.7%
  1. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
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    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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    It was but you don't see him at the end of Return of the Jedi, only Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda because Luke didn't have the pleasure of knowing him.
     
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  2. tom ndege
    Skink Chief

    tom ndege Well-Known Member

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    Ah, ok...
     
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  3. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
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    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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    It's a pity really because perhaps Qui-Gon could have stopped Luke from making such an idiot of himself in 5...
     
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  4. ravagekitteh
    Cold One

    ravagekitteh Well-Known Member

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    My understanding is that while Qui-Gon discovered the ability to come back, he had not finished his training with the Force Priestesses so he was unable to come back as anything more than a disembodied voice. So while he probably wasn't there on Endor because he didn't know Luke, even if he was you wouldn't have been able to see him. There is the exception in Mortis, but that is probably due to the amount of force power and strange ways the force behaved there.
     
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  5. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Yup and he in turn teaches Yoda.
    You really don't like Luke in episode 5!
     
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  6. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
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    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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    No I don't, because he's such an idiot. In fact it's Luke who really ruins 5 for me. Firstly, instead of finishing off the Wampa, which would have been the kind thing to do after cutting one of its arms off (like Obi-Wan finished off the Acklay in 2 after cutting its legs off), and then sheltering in the ice cave until the snowstorm blew over, he ran out into the freezing cold where he would have died of hypothermia if Han hadn't just happened to be riding in the right direction in a freezing blizzard. Then he decides to go off and 'help' his friends even though Yoda, one of the most wise and powerful beings ever to exist, tells him explicitly not to. Then when Leia, his sister and one of his best friends, tells him not to rescue her because it's a trap, he completely ignores her and follows the Imperials right into Vader's trap, instead of contacting the rest of the Rebel Alliance to home in on his signal and bring reinforcements, on something called a Comlink. Then the scream. Do I really need to talk about the scream to convey how pathetic it is?

    There. That's my rant over. You see it's these plot holes that really ruined 5 for me, and I hope that at least everyone who thinks 5 is amazing will now take these silly parts into consideration.
     
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  7. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Making the comparison between Obi-Wan from episode II and Luke from episode V is unfair. Obi-Wan is a seasoned veteran by that point with considerably greater combat experience, maturity and Jedi training. Did Luke make the right choice... no! But he was injured and panicked. You have to remember that only a couple of years prior he was just a kid living out on a moisture farm. This is all new to him and he is still learning as he goes. At the end of the day, panic and fear can lead any of us into making poor decisions.

    That is him thinking with his heart. They are essentially his only family and keep in mind that the experience the losing of his Aunt and Uncle is still fairly fresh in his mind. How many of us would sit by and let our closest friends and family die for the "greater good"? And once again, he is young and inexperienced. Youth is often accompanied by impulsive decisions. You may want him to think from a more controlled, seasoned and less emotionally driven viewpoint, but you can't really blame a guy for following his heart... even if it may lead him to make the wrong decision (although in the long run, for story reasons, it turned out for the best). In what is now non-canon, Luke turns out to become a very different type of Jedi than the ones of old. He is not nearly so aloof and is more open to love/emotion (he even gets married in the EU).


    Same answer as above. As for calling in reinforcements, that would actually be a very risky strategy. Remember that at this time the Rebel Alliance are very badly outmatched by the Empire. They can't stand toe to toe with them, and are constantly running and hiding. Bringing them into a direct battle with the Empire (who probably have considerable forces in Bespin) to save a couple of prisoners would not be the best strategic maneuver. Especially if the Empire intercepted those transmissions. You might very well lead the entire rescue party and the Rebel Alliance as a whole to their ruin.

    The poor guy just had his hand sliced off with a lightsaber and found out that the mortal enemy (at this point the Emperor really hasn't entered the picture from his vantage point) of everything he holds near and dear to his heart is actually his father. Talk about a rough day, let's cut the guy some slack.
     
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  8. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
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    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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    I'm younger than Luke would have been and even I know that regardless of how scared you are, you're much more likely to survive when fighting a Wampa with one-arm using a lightsaber than you are when wandering about in a freezing blizzard. It would certainly have been kinder to the Wampa to finish it off than let it starve to death because its one arm would mean that it would have a much harder chance of making a kill. Sometimes you have no choice but to fight because it's a 'kill or be killed' situation. Possibly the weakest and most stupid part of the whole film is Han prancing along exactly in the right direction to save him just out of pure luck, when there would be such a small chance of that happening normally in the snow, makde even smaller by the blizzard itself. Even in 4 Luke didn't act as stupidly as he did in 5, and he was a couple of years younger then.

    If you want to be a Jedi, like Luke does, you can't think with your heart all the time. While you should show compassion and love, you have to show it to everyone in equal measure and not let your love turn into an obsession, thus turning you to the Dark Side and making you much easier to defeat. Somehow it seemed to work out all right anyway because Luke was a much better character in 6.

    You would have had a much better chance of rescuing the prisoners than Luke did on his own. Vader wouldn't have had that much of an army on Bespin because otherwise the population would have grown riotous because they would feel too dominated - he would probably just had a couple of battalions of Stormtroopers with him, and we know how easy they are to kill. In fact Vader is the only decent combatant in those Imperial Forces, because Boba Fett was even more useless than the Stormtroopers, and the whole Rebel Alliance could easily have defeated those forces. Remember that Cloud City wasn't that big, Lando and his wing guards would have been able to help out and also the Alliance was much bigger than it was at the time of Rogue One and IV, because as soon as people heard about the Battles of Scarif and Yavin, they realised the Alliance had forces powerful enough to tackle the Empire and support for them grew as a result as Palpatine's illusion of tyrannical security began to lose its grip. The Alliance would have had lots of extra blokes join them as a result.

    Anakin had his hand cut off by Dooku but you didn't see him burst into tears about it - he gritted his teeth and took it like a man. It took a load of molten lava and having both his legs sliced off to make him cry out like that. I'd say certainly Mr. Hamill was overacting in that scene. Also, let's face it - if Vader hadn't realised Luke was his son, he'd have killed him in about five minutes - Vader clearly wanted to spare him, both out of love for him and to try to tempt him to the Dark Side.

    That's a bit hypocritical - you don't give Jar Jar any slack at all. You may think it's completely different, but it's just the same - you think Jar Jar's annoying, I like him. I think Luke in 5 was annoying, you like him. I'll only cut Luke some slack if you cut Jar Jar slack.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  9. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    You don't really know how you would act in such a situation unless you are actually in it. It's easy to make plans and predictions from the safety of your home behind a computer screen. Luke is injured, panicked, confused and very likely disorientated; sound judgement can very easily go out the window in such a situation.

    You use the phrase "kill or be killed", but the more apt phrase is fight or flight. Obviously he made the wrong choice, but it is extremely understandable given the circumstances. People often behave in very erratic ways when put in very stressful situations.

    It true that the chances are remote, but that scene is more about Han not giving up on his friend. Also he is not just prancing around, he is using a scanner (even if the range is limited by the storm). Also, he is working off of Luke's last known whereabouts.

    That is actually one of the major themes of the movie. Luke being tempted by the dark side is an important aspect of the film. Just as Anakin was turned to the dark side (via love), the movie explores Luke's journey on the precipice separating the light and dark sides of the force. The cave scene on Dagobah is a direct illustration of this. Then in episode 6, this theme is concluded when Anakin is brought back to the light side of the force because of his love for Luke and Luke's love for his father.
    Once again, you have to consider that Luke is still at a very early stage in his training and that his training began at a much older age than normally permitted by the Jedi.

    First off, we have absolutely no idea what kind of forces the Empire has in orbit around Bespin or nearby. To risk your entire fleet in what very well could be (and actually is) a trap is a poor tactical decision. The Empire typically outguns the Rebel Alliance by a fair margin, so a direct assault is rarely the best option. Secondly, if the Rebel Alliance did show up in numbers and actually managed to outmatch the Empire, then the prisoners might be executed, as Vader and company cut their losses and flee.

    Once again you fail to take into account that Anakin has SIGNIFICANTLY more training and experience than Luke. It is an extremely unfair comparison. In regards to Vader sparing Luke, in that we fully agree. If Vader wanted him outright dead, it would have been a very short fight.

    Hardly hypocritical, Jar Jar is perhaps the most hated Star Wars character of all time. On the flip side, episodes 5 and 6 are largely considered to be the best in the series. I'm not trying to change your personal opinion, but the numbers my friend are not on your side.
     
  10. n810
    Slann

    n810 First Spawning

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    Vader wasn't so much trying to win so much as he was trying to make Luke angry and turn him to the dark side.
     
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  11. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Agreed. Vader's sole motivation was the capture and conversion of Luke... and ultimately to collectively take down the Emperor.
     
  12. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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  13. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
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    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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    Nah. When I said "Kill or be killed", I meant "Kill or be killed" - either you kill the Wampa, get killed by the Wampa, or run out into the freezing blizzard and get killed by the cold, which by all the odds would be what should have happened to Luke.

    I never saw Han use any scanning equipment. He was just sitting on his Tauntaun. In fact look at this picture:
    [​IMG]
    See, no scanning equipment at all. This isn't Star Trek, when they can just get out tricorders and scan for his life signs.
    Also it would have been very difficult to find the exact position of Luke's last whereabouts unless Han had some sort of compass equipment we can't see, because once again, there is a blizzard out there at the time.


    OK, I agree with you there. I was always unsure of what the cave bit was, but now I see that it's Luke fighting and killing his Dark Side self. Everyone has a Sith Lord in them.

    Well, we do know some things. There cannot be any ground-based vehicles in the garrison because Bespin has no roadways, only walkways that are not large enough for walkers to travel through. When we see Luke arrive at Cloud City in his X-Wing, there isn't a single Imperial ship in sight around the planet, so there can't be that much around nearby unless they have some sort of cloaking device, but in the Star Wars films you never actually see a cloaking device used - that's for the Star Trek lot over the hill. Also there can't be that many TIE Fighters on Bespin itself because remember Han had to get permission from the Cloud City administrators to land. Vader may well also needed to get permission and the administrators would certainly get suspicious if there were a massive group of TIEs waiting to land. Also there wouldn't be any room for many of them as Cloud City is quite small. Also, if the Rebels did go to Cloud City in force and get defeated, it would be much more of a defeat than actually in the film. It would actually become 'The Empire Strikes Back' and not 'The Empire Captures A Single Poxy Rebel Officer And Kills A Few Rebel Soldiers'.

    Popularity counts for nothing - what loads of people think certainly isn't always right. The majority are either those who naturally saw the originals first when they first came out and have been brainwashed by something called 'nostalgia' or their descendents who have been brainwashed by their parents or grandparents by being shown the originals first, in the wrong story order, so that this evil thing called 'nostalgia' takes a hold on them too.
    Jar Jar and Luke are both Star Wars characters. I know you think Luke is amazing, and I respect that - Luke is a good character in 4 and 6 and will hopefully be a boss in 8 as well. I'm just saying that please tone down the Jar Jar hate a bit. While he's not my favourite, I think he's funny in places and doesn't deserve all the hate that he gets. He is certainly one of the most well-meaning of all the Star Wars characters and one of the least violent. Also I think anyone who believes the 'Jar Jar Sith' theory is a Sith themselves for inflicting so much hate on a simple, well-meaning soul. Even if he is more accident-prone than Frank Spencer.
     
  14. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
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    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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  15. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Then you need a science lesson. Fight or flight is a very real thing. It happens in nature and it happens to people as well. Kill or be killed would be encompassed in the "fight" part of fight or flight.

    Again, did Luke make the right decision... NO. But were his actions understandable/explainable based on the internal and external factors acting upon him at the time... YES.

    I suggest you watch the film again because you are greatly mistaken. There are many instances of sensors mentioned in episode V (let alone Star Wars in general).... sensors designed to pick up transmissions or life signs. Here are a couple of quotes from episode V that support this:
    • Han: "No sign of life out there general. The sensors are in place. You'll know if anything comes around:
    • C-3PO: "Mistress Leia, R2 says he's been quite unable to pick up any signals, although he does admit that his own range is far too weak to abandon all hope."
    • Rogue Two pilot: "Echo Base, I've got something. Not much, but it could be a life form."
    • Luke in his X-wing on approach to Dagobah: "I'm not picking up any cities or technology. Massive life-form readings though. There's something alive down there.
    Lastly, here is a screen shot of Han with scanning equipment while he is out searching for Luke (you can see him using it in an attempt to locate Luke):

    Han sensor.JPG

    Since this is a trap designed to lure Luke in and capture him, we should expect that the Empire's forces would not be so easily detected and in the open. That doesn't mean that they aren't hiding behind a moon or planet or a short hyperspace jump away. Gambling the entire Rebel fleet is just too risky. Especially when time is of the essence and you can't do proper reconnaissance to ensure that the Empire's forces are not in hiding ready to spring a trap.

    Since we can't do experiments to uncover scientific fact, popularity is all we have to go by. Obviously Jar Jar was not a successful character, because you can see his presence cut drastically in Episode II and he is nearly non-existent in Episode III in terms of screen time. Even when he is on screen in episodes II and III he is a greatly watered down version of his Episode I self.

    I'm not sure why you think people are brain washed. The original trilogy was absolutely revolutionary for its time and it still holds up very well today (obviously the special effects show their age though). Everything that came after it (including you beloved prequel trilogy) owes its existence to the success of the original trilogy. This isn't a case of nostalgia. It was successful upon release, it has remained endearing in the hearts of many fans and has gathered several generations of new fans. I can think of very few movies that have had such a lasting impact.

    How else can we rate movies? Awards are just the opinions of a few select individuals. There aren't many metrics available to us other than sales figures... which in turn are a direct result of popular opinion. Movies are meant to entertain the masses, so the opinions and feelings of those masses are pretty critical to our discussion.

    I do like Luke, but for the record he is FAR from my favourite character (Yoda and Vader in case you were wondering). There are many more characters I like more than Luke.

    History has passed judgement on Jar Jar and that judgement is not kind. He is simply not a successful character. He is not supposed to be hated (in contrast to someone like Joffery from Game of Thrones who is designed to be hated). Most people do not like him (as even our meager poll seems to indicate). Jar Jar stinks... search your feelings, you know it to be true. That said, if you like him, then go ahead and like him. I'm not trying to change your personal opinion of him. Maybe he simply resonates with you from some reason or another. To each their own.
     
  16. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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  17. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
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    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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  18. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
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    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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    I would watch this - it looks far better than the original

    [​IMG]
     
  19. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

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    Only if you aren't a true Star Wars fan. ;)
     
  20. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

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