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AoS State of summoning

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by WarheadsByLink, Apr 2, 2018.

  1. WarheadsByLink
    Jungle Swarm

    WarheadsByLink New Member

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    Hi guys I'm in the process of painting up a Seraphon army and have zero experience of having played AoS before. Therefore I've been trying to read up online to prepare for playing my first games. I've read/heard that summoning is still a powerful positional tool (especially with arcane vassal shenanigans) but I can't help but notice that when I read army lists they don't seem to set aside points for any summons.

    The Slann is the model that made me want to start collecting warhammer in the first place so I really want to make full use of all of his abilities but I feel like if I don't use summoning then I won't be doing that.

    What's the current state of summoning in AoS? Is there still any point or is it useless due to danger of Slann getting nuked or does lords of space and time do everything you need in terms of positional tricks?
     
  2. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Welcome!
    Yes, summoning is still used.
    It has taken the backseat a bit because of our new teleporting abilities but it is still a powerful tool that can allow you to surprise your enemies. But it is always important to have alternatives, because it isn't exactly reliable. So as long as you don't center your strategy too much around it (or use buffs yo make it more reliable) you can use it well.

    Just don't be sad if it gets taken away (and replaced ) by the next big update. That's what happened with Death and Nurgle demons. The good news us that in both cases it was replaced by something else that is pretty cool. :)
     
  3. WarheadsByLink
    Jungle Swarm

    WarheadsByLink New Member

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    Thanks Aginor. Are there any circumstances where you personally would still use it?

    I'm thinking that by relying less on lords of space and time it might free you up to take something other than the great remember trait? Or by doing stuff like summoning a skink priest at edge of spellcasting range, summoning a blob of saurus guard ahead of it (arcane vassal) and still having a teleport or two to drop bastiladons etc somewhere nasty or is that way too contrived?
     
  4. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    I am a very conservative guy who tries to avoid strategies that rely on a low number of dice rolls having good results, so.... yeah, I use summons rather rarely.
    But I might use them a bit more often in the future to create some pressure.
    If you don't expect the enemy to be in your face turn one, then reserving two points and trying to summon a few Razordons in his back as soon as he attacks can force your opponent to rush in more carefully, leaving units bacl to protect his squishy wizards and the like.
    And if the summon doesn't work it isn't too severe since behind your lines the Razordons wouldn't have done a lot in that turn anyway.
     
  5. WarheadsByLink
    Jungle Swarm

    WarheadsByLink New Member

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    Ok I will keep it in mind as I like the idea of being able to apply pressure and dictate the pace (shadow striking a load of rippers looks good for this too)!

    Going to play my first match on Sunday, really excited for it haha.
     
  6. dinoSTARZ
    Cold One

    dinoSTARZ Active Member

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    Summoning kind of sucks for first turn positional strikes in my opinion, because you have to summon 15" from the caster. Sure, there are ways to make this work, like getting a trog up close and summoning through him, but the 15" thing makes it hard to get behind people. The teleport works for this, however! A teleport plus another unit like chamo skinks, shadowed rippers, or even like celestant prime is rough stuff for the opposing army (unless they have tons of shooting) because they have to decide which way to go while you can bring the melee beatsticks towards them in the other direction. In many battleplans, getting behind them, even if u lose those units, makes them run the wrong way toward objectives giving you a turn or 2 lead MWHAHAHAHA
     
  7. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    What also works is if you play a Balewind Vortex (for example together with an Astrolith Bearer in a Kroaknado list), then the range is significantly better.
     
  8. dinoSTARZ
    Cold One

    dinoSTARZ Active Member

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    Ah yes, that makes sense. Though the list I've used Kroak with wouldn't likely use summoning. I've only tried to play it defensive where I take guards and....guard him and then make them come to me with the huge range of balewinds and mapwide comet calling. I need some tips on how to play a more aggressive kroak!
     
  9. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Teleport him into the middle of the battlefield, then BWV and nuke everything with Celestial Deliverance. :D
     
  10. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    Summons are mostly a glorified teleport, but it still has two (minor) advantages.

    • The ability to get back certain key units. Most common example is probably summoning back the eternity warden that was guarding your slann immeadiatly after it got killed.
    • Bypassing limits on the number of specific units. E.g. summon an extra behemoth.
    This gives it some uses, but it's nowhere near as interesting or awesome as you'd think. Death's new mechanic is far better. Nurgle's a bit iffy though as there's been no F.A.Q. yet that details if the reinforcement cost is still there or not.. if it is still there then the only advantage they gained is the spawning of tree's as those at least are free.
     
    Aginor likes this.
  11. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    I agree, those are important. The other is hiding your intentions to a certain degree.

    Extreme example (not very realistic, just throwing around a few ideas to show what can be a possibility):
    Having a 280 points reserve pool will make some opponents very careful. They just don't know if there is going to be....
    - 1 Bastiladon (everyone hates those sitting on objectives and shooting stuff)
    - 6 Terradons (you should use Javelins so they can shoot, great harassment unit with the additional threat of dropping bombs)
    - 1 Stegadon and 1 Razordon (Stega shoots and goes melee with a good chance, Razordon provides fire support)
    - 3 Razordons and an Astrolith Bearer (three Razordons rerolling all their hits is a major pain in the behind of almost anything)
    - 1 Troglodon and 1 Skink Priest (with the spit and the reroll on its charge the Troggy has a decent chance to charge the enemy. Light troops hate Troglodons attacking them. The Priest also makes the Troggy reroll saves which makes it more sturdy)
    ...
    ....
    or one of around a dozen other combinations.

    Of course you have to summon the units 9" away from the enemy, but all of those mentioned above are ranged units with a range of more than 9", and depending on how you buff your army they might make the charge and get into melee (Stegadon for example has a very decent chance because it can command itself, and Stegas can be devastating when they charge).

    Also make sure you put a lot of scary looking miniatures in your case, so your opponent will not be able to spot which ones you will use. :D
     
  12. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    issue with this though is that 280 points is quite a lot considering the largest games tend to be 2500. Putting over 10% of your stuff in reserve is fairly significant. And with how short the games last they can be in reserve for a rather long time. So when it come to hiding your intentions you're quite quickly severly limiting what you're actually fielding.

    It did make me think of 1 other potential use of summoning. getting your stuff in range without fearing any sort of counter attack. Summoning has a larger range than most of em can walk, so it'd potentially allow you to get the entire army in range without having to fear being shot to pieces before reaching them. Though I suppose this is going to be relativly rare in its uses as it also means your slann is all the more likely to be shot to bits himself :p
     
  13. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    That pretty much reflects why I don't use summons all that often.

    The above example is of course a bit over the top, it is mainly meant to show what is possible. In a very competitive environment like a tournament I probably wouldn't risk it. But I imagine you can have loads of fun with it in normal games against not too optimized armies.
     
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  14. Xasto
    Ripperdactil

    Xasto Well-Known Member

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    There's no real need for a FAQ, the GHB2017 cleary states that every unit set-up on the table costs points.
     
  15. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    There's no "need" in so much that the current rules are clear

    There is however a "need" in so much that the current ruleset for nurgle is well... kinda impractical... With the added limit of the nurgle corruption points you'l need to properly dedicate yourself to it to summon anything actually usefull. E.g. a great unclean one is probably not even realisticly summonable without dedicated effort to generating points. And even when fully dedicated it's going to be a late-game move at best... If the point cost then also (fully) remains it gets rather impractical... In contrast the old summoning at least made it reasonably likely that you'd manage your summon without dedicating your army to it.

    Also; the rule "every unit set-up costs points" is dumb in itself as it results in inconsistent behaviour in certain cases... e.g. blue horror's split rule can be completly free provided there's an existing blue horror unit nearby... If nothing else that needs updating.
     
  16. Xasto
    Ripperdactil

    Xasto Well-Known Member

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    Well the rules are pretty clear, you get contagion points in various ways, you can use them to summon new nurgle units, those cost reinforcement points. Nothing new or weird about that.

    Now as to what you think is practical or not, that is a completely different topic.

    I don't see how it needs updating, it's a great mechanic that adds fluff to units. By that reasoning, we should scrap the entirety of Death's new deathly invocation as you only need a gravesite nearby...
     
  17. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    Seeing as F.A.Q.'s are also used to rebalance or repair impractical stuff on occasion (e.g. the change to the EoTG roll of 18 effect) I would expect this to also appear in a F.A.Q. should GW come to their senses and agree with me :p But yes, it doesn't need to be FAQ'd to clarify, I just want it to be improved upon as I find the current official reading to be rather flawed.


    The point cost aspect of summoning abilities works inconsistently depending on the situation, like in the case of blue horrors I mentioned earlier. Inconsistent rules are bad and need updating.

    In contrast, deathly invocation works consistently in any given situation. Hence it's fine.

    I'm not sure what's unclear about that bit/how to make my view on that any clearer.
     
  18. Xasto
    Ripperdactil

    Xasto Well-Known Member

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    I strongly agree, wording could have been better.
    I thought you wanted to get completely rid of such abilities, but I now understand that you want to get rid of the inconcistencies. You and me both, my friend!
     
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  19. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    Nah, really like summoning mechanics, just don't like the current restrictions and inconsistencies.
     

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