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Tutorial The 8e Lizardmen Handbook (Updated November 2nd 2014)

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Tactics' started by VampTeddy, Oct 5, 2013.

  1. SSquirrel
    Jungle Swarm

    SSquirrel New Member

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    Re: The 8e Lizardmen Handbook

    This is a great starting bit of info for someone new to Lizardmen or considering them for a future army (like me). Hope to see it get completed soon.
     
  2. tektekboom
    Skink

    tektekboom New Member

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    Re: The 8e Lizardmen Handbook (Updated TY Scalenex)

    Definitely a good review especially to people like me that are new to 8th ed. Lizardmen and suffer from Atychiphobia. I wish I had read this a week ago, having just dropped a decent penny on Lizardmen last week, if I could go back I would definately pick up a battalion, or a box, of cold ones (for cow boys), I haven't played a single game of 8th edition and put together a practice list which had me purchase

    1 slann
    1 Oldblood (to be converted into an Oldblood with Arabyan carpet)
    2 skink priests on foot
    3 boxes of terradactyls/rippers ( 2x units of rippers and 2 mounted skinks chiefs)
    3 boxes of Saurus
    2 boxes of skinks
    2 Bastiladons
    1 Stegadon
    1 Carnosaur
    2 salamander packs

    it definitely helps knowing that I might not have the most competitive army, but i'll still have one of the coolest looking armies (just being Lizardmen makes the model range cooler than the majority of armies out there)
     
  3. Nazgren
    Jungle Swarm

    Nazgren New Member

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    Re: The 8e Lizardmen Handbook (Updated TY Scalenex)

    Hi, i havent played Lizzies since 7th and am now looking at making an army, following hte same system from my last list, this is roughly what i came up with:
    Slann with armor piercing banner, Harmonic convergence and channeling staff
    26 temple guard, full command and war banner
    2 units of 30 warriors, all with full command and spears
    2 units of 10 skirmishers with blowpipes
    Bastiladon with solar engine
    Skink priest on ancient steg with dispell scroll
    3 Terradons
    1 Salamander

    The army works on the 50 attacks of the saurus units pulverising whatever they charged through sheer numbers, coupled will magic support from the slann, skirmishers taking down monstrous creatures, while the teradons drop rocks and redirect charges.

    Since reading this guide, i was looking at taking some cavalry, namely Cold ones and a scarvet/oldblood on an cold one/carno. Would you say it is worth it and if so, what would you drop from the list? I would imagine it would probably be the lone salamander, the terradons or the steg priest.

    Finally, i am unsure what lore to take. Obviously all the punch in my army comes from the warriors, originally i took life, to keep em meaty and plentiful, however the 10" move and bonus I, etc from High magic is very nice, but i am also contemplating light, for timewarp, etc. Also, in regards to the high magic, the lore attribute states that you can forget a spell and generate one "the normal way", however, with loremaster, the normal method of generating spells becomes you automatically know it, i assume i cant use this to choose what spell i learn?
     
  4. VampTeddy
    Terradon

    VampTeddy Member

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    Re: The 8e Lizardmen Handbook (Updated TY Scalenex)

    Hai Nazgren!

    Cold one cavalry ain't necessarily a poor choice, and do fulfill one virtue in Lizardmen lists, speed! They are the fastest thing we rock :D!

    Movement 7 / swift stride is the best we can get, but the spear upgrade might not be worth it, making them more of a grinding-where-you-need-it kinda unit, more than a packs-a-punch unit! Not necessarily a bad thing!

    When you add in a Scar vet though, you get the killing power! combined with the grinding power, but you also spend a lot of points on the unit itself. An alternative is to run the Scarvet or oldblood solo, which can be quite devastating in and off itself!.

    Looking at your list, i'm not sure you need the scar vet you have some control, and some punch!

    I don't know how much you've already spent, but i would start out by removing the priest from the ancient stegadon, he's an expenditure, and nothing more, he's not necessary to make it run in 8th, and the beast confers no improved save to the rider, so either separate them, or use the Stegadon w/ Eotg alone!.

    Also, many consider the Eotg weak compared to 8th, if you want to get points for a scar vet, which range between 145 and 156 for the good builds, drops the Skink priest and the Engine itself, you'll still have a steg, and you'll have a cowboy! you'll lack a scroll though!

    Alternatively simply split the priest an engine, and run with what you got, unless you really like the looks of CoR!

    They'd definetly add speed to your list, but i'd prefer to simply ad a lone Cowboy, if affordable or just follow the advice i otherwise gave!.

    Personally, i'd consider Spears / jav on my skinks, BP are harder to use, but if you're proficient with them from 7th, keep them, otherwise, go 1/1, test the javs out ^^, also i'd drop one of the stacks of 30 saurus, and convert leftover pts to skinks and a cowboy! Core should be minimum in the current edition lizardmen list, our Core Saurus, while seemingly powerful are much more fragile than they seem (sadly), skinks however are as good as ever! (even with the ld nerf).


    Short answer (my opinion).

    Swap 1 BP skink with jav skinks to test jav skinks.
    Swap EotG priest with EotG AND priest (separate units).
    Dump 1 Saurus block.
    Add skink Skirmisher unit 'till core is filled.
    Use remains on Scar vet on CO w/ Dawnstone / dragonhelm / CO / LA / GW
    Anything leftover - Check what you want :D!
    If above 90 pts, consider a chief on terradon or ripper! 2+ AS is easily achievable and he adds a lot of speed to your list!


    I wouldn't personally remove any of your choices for CoR tbh, but if you like the unit, an alternative that would work is to spend 160 pts on 5 naked CoR with Mus for a Scar vet LoS save, or 190 pts on 6 with Mus for a 2x LoS save! IF affordable together with the saurus scar vet. (maybe by dumping the engine and just doing ancient stegadon :))

    Hope i am not too confusing. I usually flood with too many thoughts when asked to constrain myself :)
     
  5. Nazgren
    Jungle Swarm

    Nazgren New Member

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    Re: The 8e Lizardmen Handbook (Updated TY Scalenex)

    Hi, its not confusing at all, so much helpful info is much appreciated.
    I wasn't sure the stegadon was earning its points last edition so if its not as good this edition then i will probably drop it and have the skink a cohort.

    The list now looks like this:
    Slann with channeling staff, razor standard, Becalming cognition and harmonic convergence
    26 Temple guard, full commanda nd war banner
    30 Saurus warriors, full command
    2 units of 10 skirmishers, blowpipes
    1 unit of 10 skirmishers, javelins
    Bastiladon with solar engine
    3 Teradons
    1 salamander
    7 Cold ones, musician and standard bearer
    Cowboy, Sword of might, Enchanted Shield and Dawnstone
    Skink priest with lvl 2 and dispell scroll
    11 Cohorts, full command

    In regards to the cowboy, He is most likely to be fighting orcs, and maybe some chaos, so i dropped the halberd for some more armor as facing high strength foes is very likely. There will most likely be at least 1 high level wizard in both so i also took reroll 1st failed dispel on slann.

    Are there any changes you would recommend to the new list? Finally, what magic would you recommend? Is it worth squeezing some more points out for Loremaster of high magic and try to generate some of the useful light/life etc spells or should i just shoot for life/light anyway?
     
  6. VampTeddy
    Terradon

    VampTeddy Member

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    Re: The 8e Lizardmen Handbook (Updated TY Scalenex)

    Try bringing your list over to the "army lists" forum for further advice and criticism on the list!

    What i'd change right now though is exchange the Sword of might and the enchanted shield for a GW and a Dragonhelm. That gives your Scar vet 1 more str, and retains his 1+ as as well as making him almost impervious to fire. ASL is not as bad as it sounds, since the scar vets initiative already is so low! :)

    Just noticed the cohort as well.

    At those pts, Skirmirshers are simply more efficient, and better! Rather buy another unit of skimishers! and fill up (if needed) with single skinks in those units! :D

    Removing the steg removes some punch, but adding the scar vet returns some, so the trade-off is worth it!
     
  7. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Re: The 8e Lizardmen Handbook (Updated June 4th 2014)

    I added disciplines with VampTeddy's blessing. Kudos to N810 for providing the artwork for Focus of Mystery!
     
  8. Eladimir
    Salamander

    Eladimir New Member

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    Re: The 8e Lizardmen Handbook (Updated June 4th 2014)

    Been pretty down on my poor lizardmen lately so thought it was time for another ready through the tactica.

    My local meta is dark elves high elves and soon to be more wood elves.

    WS 3-4 with no re-rolls just seems depressing watching these guys hitting 95% of the time.
    More salamanders I think.
     
  9. VampTeddy
    Terradon

    VampTeddy Member

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    Re: The 8e Lizardmen Handbook (Updated June 4th 2014)

    Saurus in general seem like a weak choice, and is a weak choice if you don't wanna be dependent on magic (which you should never plan to be).

    I largely agree in your assesment, TG do have a merit on forms of stubborn, you need to avoid throwing them into combat until later in the game, when they can last out the game while holding up something nasty, or throw them at something mediocre and kill it.

    Regular saurus are better replaced by Skink skirmishers units and 2 19 man cohorts with a bunkered skink, or even better, a bunkered tetto (if your meta allows it).

    Salamanders are top-notch, in every single way, i've gone towards 2 units of 2 as part of my new standard recipe (that i build lists from).

    Core =

    5 x 10 skirmishers.

    2 x 19 Skink corhort FC.

    Heroes =

    At least one vet.
    Skink priest, maybe 2 depending on whether i put a scroll on my slann (which i usually do) and whether i use a slann (which i usually don't (though i prolly should)).

    Special =

    If i bring a slann, min. 26 TG with either standard of swiftness or Razor banner.

    Terradons - 1-3 units of 3.

    Rare =

    2 x 2 Salamanders with 1 extra snack.

    That still allows me one ancient, if i want it, which i usually don't - but i might once i get one assembled.


    That still leaves some wiggle space, since my lord choice is never firmly settled between an OB on carno (because i love the old model i painted), a slann, and 2 OB's on cold ones.

    and the rest of the list still has a couple of units that i can change between, my usual contenders are :

    Chameleon skinks - i often feel limited in their deployment though, because my opponents spent the extra time limiting them, and they're smart about it, so rarely something i win doing.

    Bastiladon w/ engine - Great model, and good effect on the board, as a boost in your case the laser should always hurt a teeny bit. (d3 str 3 is still meh though, but heck, it'll kill an elf).

    Stegadon - both ancient and regular, but the ancient wins by a mile and a half, just need one painted, always sharpened horns.

    Cold ones - Always akin to make a bus

    More vets - always useful.

    Chief on mount - Alternative to terradons, and packs a punch. To me egg is mandatory, too funny to pass up if i bring this guy.

    Scarnosaur - if i bring 1, why not go funny and bring another?


    and i can't come up with more right now. I deem those the competitive choices, some of them a bit more fluffy than others, and meta dependent, but still!

    Dunno if that gives any inspiration though.
     
  10. sillyduck123
    Saurus

    sillyduck123 Member

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    Re: The 8e Lizardmen Handbook (Updated June 4th 2014)

    Nice write up won't have to look up decent lore's for lizard men anymore

    keep it up
     
  11. dbgoldberg323
    Jungle Swarm

    dbgoldberg323 New Member

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    Re: The 8e Lizardmen Handbook (Updated June 4th 2014)

    Thank you for the metric crap-ton of information in the first few posts! I am absolutely looking forward to the Lizard-Fu write-ups considering I'm picking my Lizardmen back up. Keep at it and thanks again!
     
  12. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Want to contribute to the sample list section of Lizardfu? Make an entry here and we'll post a few and include you in our credits.
     
  13. discomute
    Cold One

    discomute Active Member

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    Oooh warriors just got downgraded
     
  14. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    I've been mulling that over for some time. Lots of posters have mentioned the lacking aspects of Saurus Warriors a here and there. Not in a whiny way "Why can't my unit dominate everyone," but in well-thought out eloquently explained arguments. I can only read these for so long before my opinion changes. Especially this thread

    National tournament winning LM lists tend to have all Skink Core.

    I played a tournament recently where an all Saurus list came in last place (I was in the middle of the pack with my Traditional Saurus and Skink list).

    I would not recommend throwing Saurus Warriors away, but I decided I could no longer keep Saurus Warriors on the same tier as Skink Skirmishers and I didn't want to boost Skink Skirmishers to purple since while they are undeniably useful, they can be replaced in function with small Skink Cohorts, flyers, or Chameleon Skinks. A unit with that many possible substitutes should not be purple.

    If anyone would like to present an argument to move Saurus Warriors back to blue and/or promote Skinks, I am open to any polite and good-natured debate on the subject of our Core.
     
  15. discomute
    Cold One

    discomute Active Member

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    My two cents is that the classification system needs tweaking. If skink skirmishes are awesome units for their cost, and they do what they do better than anything else, I don't see why they wouldn't be purply
     
  16. SilverFaith
    Terradon

    SilverFaith Member

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    It's... a difficult decision, because they are not strictly better than anything else. Chameleons does poison shooting better, cohorts does redirecting and stand&shooting for cheaper, and cohorts can also work as actual speedbumps, or even to distrupt ranks with a flank charge.

    Skink Skirmishers are probably only as good as they are, because they are core. Taken in comparison to the other core, skirmishers are more mobile with poisoned shooting (which costs elves a ton of points, as a comparison)) and they severely outperform saurus in pretty much anything. Most things dangerous to a saurus is EXACTY as dangerous against skinks, which means skinks are always preferable in these situations, because they are so much cheaper. They are often as good as causing wounds, especially considering skinks can engage pretty much anything and be dangerous, thanks to poison...

    I don't know, I actually think the current ratings seem fitting. Skinks are significantly better than saurus in almost every role, but the choice between cohorts, skrox and skirmishers is in no way big enough to warrant a purple rating for either, at least not in my opinion.
     
  17. William Jackson
    Skink

    William Jackson Member

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    This is a great idea! it's helping me to decide what to buy next!:)
     
  18. Scalenex
    Skink Priest

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    @William Jackson. Note, this handbook was written for 8th edition. If you are playing Age of Sigmar the meta changes. I don't think anyone knows enough to make a color coded system for AoS, but just know that it's different.

    Just brought it up because you are a new member and I wasn't sure which version of Warhammer Fantasy you were playing.
     
  19. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Aye... the good old days!
     
  20. William Jackson
    Skink

    William Jackson Member

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    O.K, but I do play 8th edition
     

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