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AoS The AoS 2.0 Tactics Thread

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by Xasto, Jun 12, 2018.

  1. Xasto
    Razordon

    Xasto Well-Known Member

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    Hello everybody!

    As we learn a little bit more everyday (or almost) about the new and exciting changes for the second edition of AoS, I thought we could start analyzing and sharing our ideas for upcoming tactics, combos and crazy shenanigans.

    Of course, we do not yet have the full scope of what 2nd Edition will be, but I think we know enough to start pointing out neat things.

    This is an evolving thread, of course, as more information about 2nd Edition is sure to be revealed in the coming weeks.

    There's a lot of new available stuff to start theorycrafting, or will eventually be available at release, such as:

    - Command points and command abilities
    - Malign Sorcery
    - Realm specific Lores of magic and artefacts
    - Point cost modifications

    What do you guys think? Found some nifty combos yet? Or maybe an existing one that's getting new toys to play with? Post away!
     
  2. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    I think I will try and put together a summoning spam list.
    Basically the Kroaknado setup (Kroak on a Vortex + an Astrolith Bearer), so I can get 20-22 summoning points each round.
    The rest could be a Shadowstrike or anything else. That will depend on the new rules such as artefacts, command point spending possibilities and so on.

    I summon as much as the rules allow, mostly sturdy stuff like a Bastiladon or Saurus Guard, but Terradons (booombs!!) or even Skinks could be really annoying for the enemy.

    I don't know where that will lead but that's on my ToDo list.
     
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  3. PabloTho
    Skink

    PabloTho Member

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    My question is this - will we be able to generate summoning points and summon a unit in the same turn? For instance, if I use all my spells for rituals in round 1, in round 2 can I then use only 2 spells for rituals and then summon using my new ritual point total immediately afterwards? Using a list like this, and assuming the summoning costs provided from 'open reads' are correct, throwing down multiple free Carnos/Bastiladons/Stegadons in a single game is looking pretty feasible.
     
  4. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Judging by the description posted in our faction focus I would say yes, we can. I see no reason why we shouldn't be able to.
     
  5. Ritual
    Skar-Veteran

    Ritual Well-Known Member

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    There could definitely be some interesting summoning shenanigans this edition for us, looking forward to seeing the rules and then painting 5 Bastilladons.
     
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  6. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    I wonder if we will get the restriction that it isn't allowed to have more than a maximum army size on the list (such as 2000 points in a 2000 points game), which would mean that we could only summon units if others were destroyed before that.

    Even then the summoning could be quite effective, as we wouldn't have to be that careful with our glass cannons (Knights or Rippers for example) anymore. I still hope that will not be the case.
     
  7. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

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    That's exactly what I thought, how many Basilidons will I need! :D
     
  8. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Good question!

    Let's see...
    The theoretical maximum of summoning points per round is 22 I believe:
    - Kroak on a Balewind Vortex spending all six spells for summoning = 18 points
    - Kroak is a Slann and the General = 1 point
    - Astrolith Bearer = 1d3 points

    A Bastiladon is 18 summoning points if that info is correct.

    So if you start with two Bastiladons, and put all spells into summoning each round, and roll well with the Astrolith, and summon nothing else, you will have enough points (110) to summon six Bastiladons. At least if it is allowed to summon two Bastis in the last round.
    If you don't roll perfectly it will be five Bastiladons.

    So the theoretical maximum is having eight or nine (if you start with three) Bastiladons on the board in the fifth round of a 2000 points game.

    But.... I kinda fear there will be some rule preventing that from happening...
     
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  9. Stevie754
    Skink

    Stevie754 New Member

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    Kroak would only get 5 spells (4 + 1) if he was up on a balewind, so you can get 15 from him, 1 from end of hero phase and d3 from astrolith.
    From the leaks a bastiladon will be 24 points so could reliably summon it turn 2, and still be able to get 2 or 3 big spells off from Kroak in your 2nd turn.
     
  10. Asamu
    Cold One

    Asamu Active Member

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    As far as command abilities: Command points make teleport alpha strikes a lot more reliable. Before, if you wanted maximum reliability on an alpha strike, you needed a vast intellect slann and a foot Oldblood leading the bloodclaw with a cold one scar vet to teleport 40 saurus, then reform them to 6" away instead of 9" and only need a 4+ on the charge roll, re-rolling 1s). With command points, you can bring an Oldblood on foot with a Sunclaw and a Slann, and you can make that alpha strike with maximum reliability. Now, with the Chronomantic Cogs endless spell, you can get another +2 to charge rolls and make those teleport alpha strikes even harder to fail.

    Seraphon have a lot of strong command abilities in their Saurus heroes that previously couldn't be utilized without either bringing a Bloodclaw (Which is a massive points investment that take 4 hero slots) or not making a Slann the general, so I expect many of them will start seeing more use. The only saurus command ability that isn't really notable is the Sunblood's command ability, because it's redundant when you have an astrolith bearer, which I don't think many lists will be passing up with the new summoning rules.

    It was 24 if the other thread was correct. Also, Kroak on a Balewind gets 5 spells, so 3 less summoning points per turn. The cap would be at 19, unless you also bring the cogs and use them for a 6th spell, but that's probably just overkill.

    For summoning, I think we'll mostly want to be summoning Bastiladons, Skinks, Kroxigors, and Terradons. The rest of the options are either a bit too low impact or better when included as part of the army. Kroxigors have a specific niche against horde armies with the moonhammer, and Terradons have a 1-off ability to do some mortal wounds, which we don't have a lot of access to. Bastiladons get a "discount" through summoning at only 24 points to summon (if you assume each summoning point is worth ~10pts), and they're a ranged unit, so they'll always be able to have an immediate impact on the game. Skinks are chaff, and can be summoned to block charges, provide a bit of extra missile damage, or contest objectives with some extra bodies.

    Because summoning happens in the movement phase (unless you roll a 14-17 on an engine of the gods?), I think we'll generally want to avoid summoning heroes and saurus units, as they can't cast spells, use command abilities, or charge reliably right away. The exception is perhaps bringing in 5 guard to block a charge from something that can't do mortal wounds, but even still, 10-20 skinks is most likely just a better option.


    With the combination of summoning, points changes, shooting changes, and command points, I expect we'll see a rise in some more combat oriented lists that have the flexibility to alpha strike, with skinks mostly being brought to the table as a result of summoning, rather than being brought in the initial army. We've already seen some such lists do well in recent tournaments, and they're almost strictly getting better, while the alternatives are mostly getting a bit worse for us due to the removal of the point reduction for maximum size skink units, and the changes to shooting making Bastiladons locked in combat less flexible, and the change to Mystic shield making Bastiladons a bit weaker anyway.


    Kroaknado will still be around, but it's losing some power with the change to the Balewind, though Umbral spell portal adds another option for it, and the look out sir rule helps Kroak a lot when he's not on a balewind. Thunderquake is losing some power with the shooting and mystic shield changes.

    I don't think going all in on summoning with Kroak will be worth it in the end though. His spells just do too many mortal wounds to consider not casting in favor of some extra summoning points, and he's too many points to do nothing with on the first turn; a regular slann can still generate 13 summoning points every turn with a balewind, and that saves you 190 points. Since nothing costs more than 24 points to summon, you don't really want to generate more than 12 points a turn anyway. Getting 14-16 doesn't add any significant benefit over getting 11-13 in a turn, and you can't get more than 16 on turn 1, even with kroak and a balewind, as one of his spells needs to be invested into summoning it in the first place.
     
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  11. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Oops, my bad. For some reason I had him at 5 spells base in my mind.
    And 24 points for a Basti? Uhh... ok. Should have read that other thread once more I guess. :D

    Ok so that would mean summoning a Basti turn two, three, and four.
    Maximum number of Bastis on the board would then be...

    Starting with two on the board:
    Round 1: 2 Bastis and 19 points left
    Round 2: 3 Bastis and 14 points left
    Round 3: 4 Bastis and 9 points left
    Round 4: 5 Bastis and 4 points left
    Round 5: Still five Bastis, unfortunately we are one point short of another one.


    So five Bastis is probably the realistic number even if you assume that you won't get 3 points out of the Astrolith each round.
     
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  12. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    I think Razordons, Ripperdactyls, and Knights could also be worth summoning.

    Rippers can be useful for placing another toad on the board for a Shadowstrike, and three of them are enough to create a substantial threat to some enemy units. They are glass cannons so the enemy will want to deal with them.

    Razordons are great for offense and defense, and summoning them is cheap if you need some shooting attacks.

    If a Scar-Veteran on Cold One is near, or the right constellation is active the Knights may be able to get into combat quite quickly.


    What is not clear to me is how the restriction for being wholly within 12" of the Slann or Astrolith Bearer will impact our tactics. We cannot deep strike by summoning, so we will have to make sure that our Slann and Astrolith are well screened, otherwise the enemy can shut down our summoning quite easily. Since the summoned units cannot move in the turn they are summoned they will block the zone and you will have to move them away to summon more.
     
  13. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Waiiitt.... I think I forgot that the BWV has to be summoned using a spell so my summoning math might be wrong yet again.

    Starting with two on the board:
    Round 1: 2 Bastis and 16 points left
    Round 2: 3 Bastis and 11 points left
    Round 3: 4 Bastis and 6 points left
    Round 4: 5 Bastis and 1 point left
    Round 5: Still five Bastis, and 20 points left.
     
  14. Ritual
    Skar-Veteran

    Ritual Well-Known Member

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    Either way I want more Bastiladons :p
     
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  15. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    For a regular Slann the maximum reliable summoning (I use a 1 for the Astrolith's 1d3) and maximum (in brackets) will look like this I think:

    Round 1: 11 points. (13)
    Round 2: 22 points (26)
    Round 3: 33 points (39)
    Round 4: 44 points (52)
    Round 5: 55 points (65)


    With a Balewind Vortex it looks like this:
    Round 1: 11 points. (13)
    Round 2: 25 points (29)
    Round 3: 36 points (42)
    Round 4: 47 points (55)
    Round 5: 58 points (68)


    A Starseer with Curse of Fates could improve the Astrolith to a minimum of two if you urgently need one point more. That would a very interesting thing to do. I am not sure though if it is worth the 140 points.
    There are a lot of possible combinations and indeed a ver interesting tradeoff mechanic between spells and summoning.
     
  16. Furnus
    Skink

    Furnus New Member

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    Pretty sure the Balewind Vortex only lets you add 1 to casting and unbind rolls, and not actually allowing you to cast any extra spell (aside from the fact that the successful casting of the summon Balewind Vortex spell itself does not count towards the maximum amount of spells the wizard may cast).

    Is it from another source you fellas are adding an additional spell-to-summoning-conversion?

    Otherwise:

    Kroak, 4 spells = 12 summoning points
    Slann, 3 spells = 9 summoning points
     
  17. Burwinkelito
    Skink

    Burwinkelito Member

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  18. Nefertem
    Temple Guard

    Nefertem Well-Known Member

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    Interesting thing is, that a model's specific rrule beats the rules in the rulebook. So Kroak can go wild nuking 3 celestial deliverences and 2 additional spells on a vortex. Also, as far as I understood, (command)abilities are triggered using command points. As these are very sparse (one generated per round, +1 once per battalion) the synergies (astrolith) are far more fragile.
     
  19. Xasto
    Razordon

    Xasto Well-Known Member

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    What?! does it really trumps the rule of 1?
     
  20. Asamu
    Cold One

    Asamu Active Member

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    Yeah, "ABILITIES Most warscrolls include one or more abilities that can be used by the warscroll’s models during a game of Warhammer Age of Sigmar. Abilities take precedence over the core rules."Page 13 of the new rules, which can be found here: https://ageofsigmar.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2018/06/AoS_Rules-ENG.pdf

    This makes the Kroaknado quite a bit stronger than it used to be once enemies are in range. Though with the change to the balewind to increase spell range by 6" instead of double, Kroak will only have +14" with an astrolith, or 20" on cast rolls of 10+ on the range, which I guess is plenty if you teleport him forward turn before casting. You could also use the Umbral spellportal instead of a Balewind (you can't do both because of the balewind needing 3" of space) to measure from 18" away instead of directly from Kroak.

    Either way, assuming all the information available so far is correct, Seraphon is looking to be one of the top factions in the 2nd edition.
     
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