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AoS To horde or anti horde, that is the question?

Discussion in 'Seraphon Army Lists' started by darren watson, Aug 27, 2017.

  1. Aginor
    Skar-Veteran

    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    ...and of course allying in some SCE might also work. IIRC they have some great anti horde units as well.
     
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  2. darren watson
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    darren watson Well-Known Member

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    Use it and let me know how you get on?

    I think Seraphon will be better off trying to counter hordes rather than join them. Just have to work out what kicks out enough damage point for point.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017
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  3. Tozon
    Saurus

    Tozon Active Member

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    I think we'll end up being a halfway house. A solid core of hordes (maybe 2x40) but backed up by all the tricks Seraphon have.

    I just feel with everyone tooling up to deal with hordes our 10 man scoring skink units are going to struggle with claiming/holding objectives in the new battleplans.
     
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  4. Tizianolol
    Chameleon Skink

    Tizianolol Active Member

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    If you drop eotg and warden you can put another stegadont and 3 razodont! They see amazing vs letters and hordes in general!!:)
     
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  5. Aginor
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    Aginor Well-Known Member

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    Yeah that would work.
    Right now so am working on a list that tries to combine an Eternal Starhost (good against everything without mortal wounds) with that sniping ability to get rid of stuff that can cause mortal wounds. I am sure that Guards are very good if you support them correctly. I just have to find the best way.
     
  6. LordRibbit
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    LordRibbit Well-Known Member

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    This is something I'm think of for the GT Finals coming up:

    Slann
    Skink priest
    Skink starpriest
    Eternity warden

    2 x 10 guard
    5 x guard
    40 x skinks with blowpipes
    2 x basti with lasers
    Razardon
    Eternity starhost

    Points 1990

    Trying to get a good balance but finding it difficult at the moment to be honest....
     
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  7. Solaris
    Skink

    Solaris Member

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    I'm looking at something like this:

    Scarvet on carno
    Sunblood
    Astrolith
    Skink priest
    Starpriest
    Starpriest
    40 Saurus
    10 Saurus
    10 Saurus
    Sunclaw
    40 Skinks
    8 Salamanders/Razordon/Handlers

    It has 160 wounds, which is a fair amount, and a plethora of offensive and defensive buffs/debuffs. Finding the right balance between Salamanders and Razordons is key to being able to deal with both horde armies and 2+ rerollable saves. I agree with Tozon that we'll likely end up in between, rather than a pure horde or anti horde. I may be biased though, since I always prefer balanced lists over extreme ones.
     
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  8. darren watson
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    darren watson Well-Known Member

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    Balanced lists are where the skill is at but are at a disadvantage in a tournament setting sadly. Being a lord of cheese is undesirable though..

    Tonight I'm going to try something a little more balanced:

    Kroak-Vortex-General
    Astrolith-resurrection on a 3 plus
    Starpriest-free unbind
    Allied Knight-Vexillator with mini mortal wound bomb standard

    10 skinks boltspitters and shields X 3

    6 Ripperdactyls
    Bastiladon with solar
    4 Razodons

    Shadowstrike

    14 Dons is fun to use but expensive..
     
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  9. Solaris
    Skink

    Solaris Member

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    I think the lack of numbers and the extremely low number of wounds will hurt you, but please report back with the results!

    I wouldn't say balanced lists are at a disadvantage, although when I say "balanced" I mean a list with a balance between speed, damage output, resilience, damage types and numbers of models/wounds, rather than a list that is "fair". I'm happy to put a bunch of OP crap into my list, but I still always strive to build a balanced toolbox and have a 17/2/1 W/D/L record in tournament games, including two overall wins, one second place finish and a five-game win streak at AoS 6 Nations (although sadly my team ended fourth overall :'( ). I much prefer having all the tools available to try and outplay my opponent, rather than building around a gimmick. But yeah, that's preference, both kinds of lists and approaches are valid!

    (Also, I don't mean to brag, so sorry if it comes off like that. I just wanted to illustrate that lists that strike a balance between different elements are not necessarily at a disadvantage.)
     
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  10. darren watson
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    darren watson Well-Known Member

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    I'd brag if that was my AOS tournament record pal! No worries. this year I am 16/0/3 from the 4 events I've managed to get to. Best result was 4th at the SCGT :) though I won June Judgement a local tournament. My experience this year has been unbalanced lists have done very well even run by poor players is all. I imagine at 6 nations everyone must be pretty competent, so would expect better players using balanced lists and doing better.

    This list actually has more wounds then what I was running pre GHB2. I am looking forward to seeing how it gets on and loving re-looking at lists and love list building. I think it's one of my favourite things about the hobby, all the theory hammer.

    I'd love to go a team event, that sounds brilliant.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
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  11. Solaris
    Skink

    Solaris Member

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    Oh yeah, a poor player would generally do much better with an unbalanced list than a balanced one. 4th at SCGT is real impressive, congratulations! Sadly, the tournament scene here in Sweden is not nearly as developed as the one you have over in the UK, our largest tournaments have around 35-40 participants and happen 2-3 times a year. I need to start going overseas and attend some of the big ones =)

    In terms of lists, 6 Nations was kind of a mixed bag. The team format made it possible to build some rather extreme lists and draft good scenarios and matchups for them, which was interesting.

    In general, I would say that the top tier lists tend to be extremely solid and well-rounded. They usually don't have many weaknesses to exploit, and can handle almost anything when played right. That's why they are top tier armies.

    Either way, back to your list. What is the purpose of the Vexillor? Kroak already gives you plenty of mortal wounds, so wouldn't those 140 points be better spent on beefing a Skink unit up to 40 models? That would help out immensely with scoring.
     
  12. darren watson
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    darren watson Well-Known Member

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    Vex is there to put people on tilt straight away..

    This list is designed to maximise first turn damage. Kroak can pump out the damage but quite often falls short of killing all low level characters in a turn. The extra d3 damage will help accomplish that and also help clear screening units for more preferable Ripper charges.

    He's there to mess with people's minds. They will either know what is coming and have to deploy in a way that isn't optimal. Or not fully appreciate what is about to happen. If I can, I like to put my opponent on tilt asap, losing your characters early will do that nicely.

    I'm expecting lists to have more drops than they used to. Against this you can bubble up and make for excellent carpet bombing targets or deploy strung out, allowing a Ripper charge/Razordon drop on a flank to be much more successful.


    Hopefully... I will see tonight and let you know as this is all in my head currently.
     
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  13. Solaris
    Skink

    Solaris Member

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    I assume you will teleport Kroak into a good position t1? Otherwise it's quite easy to deploy to counter this, most armies don't rely on having their small characters up front. Even so, you can counter the t1 combo by spreading your characters out. You'll also have to be extremely careful with where you position Kroak - most good lists and players have the tools to take him down in a turn if he's exposed, even on top of a Balewind. I recently played a tournament game against a version of your Kroak list, where I blasted him off the board t1 with two Thundertusks. Granted, he made a huge mistake in deployment, but since I gave him first turn he'd have had to move Kroak up anyway in order to accomplish anything. So, I'd argue that eliminating ranged threats should be your top priority, rather than trying to tilt your opponent by killing off some characters. If you get rid of threats to Kroak quickly, the game is basically in the bag.
     
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  14. darren watson
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    darren watson Well-Known Member

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    There will be less tools to deal with a buffed up Kroak than before. I see the meta moving towards hoards and melee. I totally agree you take out threats to Kroak first, you delay the teleport with him turn one and send over a basti or dons to help eliminate any threats to him if they are well capable of killing him in a turn.
    In most cases though you should be able to get him to a sweet spot and give your opponent a choice of pumping a lot of resources into maybe killing him. People who deploy strung out quickly learn how good Rippers are. I see it as a win win situation, bubble and get blown up. String yourself out and get charged hard on a flank.
    I intend to try a few different variations on this theme, with more Skinks, a Cellestent-Prime, 14 Razordons! See what works best for me. I do really value being able to control deployment, for me it's the most important part of the game. A Vex may or may not help with that, I will try and find out :)
     
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  15. Solaris
    Skink

    Solaris Member

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    Yep, deployment and movement are the two main phases of the game that I work in as well. They are soooo crucial. I think the meta moving towards hordes will somewhat hamper this list, since hordes allow you to string out and still bubble wrap. That's what I did with my Destruction army facing Kroak - bubble wrapping with 60 Grots still allows me to be very spread out. Of course, that list doesn't really work very well anymore, but I imagine that a lot of lists will have the numbers necessary to spread out a lot and still keep their crucial units safe from the Rippers.

    The way I would face your list with two Huskards on Thundertusks is deploying them 1.5" back from the line so that they are out of range of your Bastiladon t1. If you tp your Razordons forward, they will on average deal 4.67 wounds after saves, of which I will heal back on average 2.67 in my hero phase and be back to 6 mortal wounds per blast. The Razordons are gone, and I can move up while still remaining out of range of the Bastiladon. You'd have to bring the Razordons, the Bastiladon and Kroak to bear on one of the Thundertusks in the same turn to reduce it enough to be somewhat safe, but unless you kill it it can still heal up to d3 or even d6 damage and be a threat to Kroak. Bringing 10 Skinks and the Vexillor in to attack it as well, you'd probably kill it. However, you then rely on your opponent making a mistake and deploying within range of the Bastiladon. I still think a unit of 40 Skinks would be a larger boon to your list than the Vexillor - that would give you the tools to kill something like a Thundertusk on t1 on average, making your list much safer.
     
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  16. darren watson
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    darren watson Well-Known Member

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    I love this! If and buts are the best game. Against your 1.5" back Thundertusk I'd Vortex push my basti into range turn one and drop the Dons within range. Kroaks spells, dons, Vex and basti would end one and hurt the other ;)

    Haha. I do see the value in 40 skinks especially as they get to move 2d6 before the game. It's going to be an exciting couple of months seeing how the meta responds ins't it?

    I am gearing up for Blood and Glory a large AOS event in a couple of months. Will try both and see what feels right. My list on paper looks bad scenario wise, but it looked worse before and still took on Kunnin' Rukks with 2 thundertusks no problem. Now it's improved and they have been shafted hard, hazaar!
     
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  17. Tizianolol
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    Tizianolol Active Member

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    @darren watson
    do you think list posted with knight vexillor need a strarseer? i know , he cost so mutch but the rerolls and +1 on a dice every phase can be important for a krox bomb list? or you dont need him for you plans?^^
     
  18. darren watson
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    darren watson Well-Known Member

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    I love the Starseer but I'm trying games now without him. Getting kroak up on a vortexis so important but now you can teleport potentially to arcane territory for the plus 1. 200 pts is a lot and he can be a risk with his reroll ability.

    Truth is I don't know if the list is better with or without. Tonight I'm playing a game without him.. I'll let you know how I get on ☺
     
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  19. Solaris
    Skink

    Solaris Member

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    Haha yeah, well nothing stops me from deploying 2" back instead :p Kroak does outrange me though, so I'd lose any kind of Mexican stand off and have to adapt to your deployment. Kind of a moot point however, my list doesn't work anymore and it's time to move on. Borrowing my buddy's Tzeentch force for a big upcoming tournament here in Sweden, after that I'm starting a new project (or buying his Tzeentch off of him if I like them ;) ). Partial to Seraphon, cause friggin' dinos, but still haven't settled for an army to play. Gotta think long and hard about play styles.

    The Starseer is insanely expensive now, I'd be much more inclined to use a Slann with the command trait to get access to his spell.
     
  20. Tizianolol
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    Tizianolol Active Member

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    A question about kroak plus vortex..when you pop vortex on kroak and after you teleport him with trait..you can teleport both vortex and kroak with one teleport?
     

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