Warhammer Fantasy Battles - Army Alignment

I think the main reason why you disagree with each other might be the definitions of the categories.

You seem to use the definitions by D&D, while @NIGHTBRINGER doesn't.

 

I think the important thing here is:
The system does not work very well for societies, it is made for single characters.
A society of chaotic (evil, good, neutral) people is very hard to achieve. Probably only works with CG because those might try to help each other, but in that case it comes from the G not the C.

That being said: if we look at the factions as if they were persons, and ignore the structures within their societies then we can make it work.

That's why for me the Dwarves might not qualify as LG, because (AFAIK, I hardly know the old world) they don't seem to be very altruistic, while High Elves are.

Orcs are hard to judge. I cannot tell if they are CG or if they are CN.

I would definitely put the Tomb Kings to Lawful Neutral, because they are very ordered, and believe in hierarchies. They are not treacherous and not expansive. They are not altruistic or opportunistic.

Lizardmen are hard. I tend to call them quite lawful, and they seem to be fighting for the greater good, but they are ready to kill everyone standing in the way without any respect for life. That's more LN than LG although they tend toward the good I think. Just on a larger scale. (Lol, pun was not intended).

I wonder why you both didn't put Skaven to CE. They are the most treacherous and opportunistic faction, aren't they? Even Dark Elves have some kind of honor in their relations toward others, don't they?

 

Good points.
I admit that I am a bit fuzzy in the details of the system myself, it has been a few years.

I once had some great article by Gary Gygax (or maybe some other D&D designer) that went into more detail than the very short version Wikipedia has. I'll see if I can find it.

This is indeed fun!

 

I am not sure if I can, as I don't know the Old World that well, so I would probably be wildly off.

 

Not yet. I have been busy thinking about other stuff. But thanks for the reminder, I still intend to at least make a list.

 

Ok here we go.
I found myself struggling a bit more with this than I had thought.
One reason is the one stated above: those categories are made for individuals. By D&D standards there can't be armies of CE individuals for example.
The other reason is that I am in fact not very knowledgeable about AoS lore either, so for some factions I don't really know and might misjudge them.
Anyway, let's start. I made a list because creating graphics on my phone is a pain in the behind.

LG: Seraphon might actually apply.
They don't usually interfere, but when they do they do so out of altruistic reasons. They are very ordered, and pretty reliable.
That being said: they could fit LN, too.

LN: maybe Stormcast Eternals.
They are very ordered, and they adhere their rules, but _only_ their rules. They are seen as the good guys, but many of them aren't. They do pretty good things, and very evil things, because they see them as justified.

LE: Kharadron Overlords.
This is one of the easier ones because they are greedy traders. They would do almost anything to satisfy their needs, and they don't care with whom they trade. They seem to strictly adhere to their rules and laws though, and they do have an ordered structure in their society.

NG: Cities of Sigmar
NG is one of the more common alignments. Many people might be selfish enough to be NE, but many are altruistic enough to qualify as NG. As a whole I think the Cities of Sigmar, a conglomerate of species that tries to help each other survive in a brutal world but don't necessarily adhere to all the rules, should fit NG.

NN: Sylvaneth
They fight Chaos. But they also fight everyone else who gets into their way. They rarely attack though, except in great need. They don't care much for the others. They sometimes act altruistic but they also have very evil beings within their ranks (Spite Revenants for example). As a force of nature I would call them true neutral.

NE: Legions of Nagash
Tough. Traditionally Liches and the like are CE, they care only for themselves. And that might be true for Nagash, because all the other undead are just tools for him. However as a whole I would call them Neutral Evil. Think of all the living practitioners of Death magic, all the Vampires and Necromancers and Ossiarch dudes, they form armies and have ordered structures. Judging by the Malign Portent stories I'd even I'd even say that some of them have altruistic feelings. That's just not chaotic enough for CE. They want to rule the world, and their main goal is to have Death rule, and fight the living (maybe even kill everyone but that's not 100% clear I think. Death stuff without living souls doesn't work well does it? That's clearly evil, but not chaotic. They are not exactly super reliable though so that speaks against LE. Although some characters probably are.

CG: none. Some Sylvaneth subfaction could fit though.
If the Sylvaneth didn't have the ridiculously evil stuff I'd probably put them here. But they lack the good amount of altruism they would need to be called good I think.

CN: Orruk Warclans (especially Bonesplitterz), Ogres.
They just don't care. They want to roam around and fight and eat. They don't care much about altruism and they don't scheme. They live in the present and just do the thing they do.


CE: Chaos Daemons
The fun problem here is that Warhammer Chaos Daemons are not chaotic by D&D standards. None of the factions is. They all have ordered structures and armies. They are way more akin to the Devils of D&D in that.
I'd still say they are the closest thing to being CE. They don't care for each other nor for the living or death, and they are incredibly evil. They live to destroy literally all there is.


Ok, that's it. I will probably have to refine this post though, I am not yet completely happy.

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Info for the non-D&D guys:
D&D has two main groups of evil outsiders (beings from other planes of existence):
Devils (also called Baatezu)
And Demons (also called Tanar'ri)
Devils are always LE, and Demons are always CE.

Devils are the classic ones that you can deal with, and they have armies and hierarchies and all that stuff. Many of them look like Khorne Daemons.
They want to rule.

D&D Demons on the other hand are more wild, mainly solitary. They do have a bit of a hierarchy but they constantly backstab each other, like Skaven. Like Warhammer Daemons they are manifested feelings.
They want to destroy.

 

Interesting suggestion.
I basically ruled them out because most Dwarves from most stories are exceptionally lawful. Some are LE, some are LN, and some are LG. It is very rare that they have anything chaotic about them unless they are batshit crazy.

But then I know hardly anything about Fyreslayers. Are they less fond of traditions and order than other Dwarves?

 

Ok, I understand where you are coming from to call them "chaotic", but I am actually not that sure about the "good" part.
Their protectiveness and altruism only exists within their society, does it? They protect their lodges, which is basically protecting themselves.
They also switch sides for Ur-gold. You categorize that as chaotic, which I agree on, but depending on whether they will work for someone who is clearly evil that will influence their standing toward neutrality or even evil.
I also wonder: Is putting Grimnir back together altruistic, or are they doing it for themselves?

 

There are lots of different interpretations of the 9 alignments. Since it's a fictional system of splitting up the cosmos there is not right answer.

The biggest change occured in 3rd edition. Neutral used to mean a midway point between good and evil, but Neutral turned into "Diet Good." Neutral characters want good things for other people, and they oppose evil, but they do not make major sacrifices to help others oppose evil without some other incentive.

Then there is an assumption that all nine boxes must be filled. In which case you find the best possible fit for every box. In which case both @NIGHTBRINGER and @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl 's interpretations are valid.

But I would argue that by the fluff, most of the blocks should be blank. Given that the Chaos Realm drives fluff so heavily, there is a lot built around Law versus Chaos. There are not many Warhammer factions that would qualify as Neutral with regard to Law and Chaos, and all of the Neutrals in this regard are Neutral Evil, Dark Elves, Skaven, Vampire Counts. Maybe Wood Elves could qualify as True Neutral. Her is my take.

• Beastmen Chaotic Evil
• Bretonnia Lawful Neutral with good tendencies
• Chaos Dwarfs Lawful Evil
• Daemons of Chaos Chaotic Evil
• Dark Elves Neutral Evil with Lawful tendencies
• Dwarfs Lawful Neutral with Good tendencies
• Empire Lawful Good
• High Elves Lawful Neutral with Good tendencies
• Lizardmen Lawful Neutral
• Ogre Kingdoms Chaotic Neutral with Evil tendencies
• Orcs & Goblins Chaotic Evil
• Skaven Neutral Evil with Chaotic tendencies
• Tomb Kings Lawful Neutral
• Vampire Counts Neutral Evil
• Warriors of Chaos Neutral Evil with Chaotic tendencies
• Wood Elves True Neutral with Lawful tendencies
• Dogs of War (who most people don't count) True Neutral with Evil tendencies.