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AoS We have the attention of GW regarding the toad nerf

Discussion in 'Seraphon Discussion' started by darren watson, Feb 15, 2018.

  1. darren watson
    Kroxigor

    darren watson Well-Known Member

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    Rejoice scaled brothers, we maybe getting an answer either way to how our Shadowstrike toads are deployed.

    I posted a tweet about how you can't split Pink Horrors into Blue Horrors unless there are already Blue Horrors on the board following the same logic as the toad nerf because the ability to do so is on the Blue Horror scroll. Same case for Brimstones splitting from Blues..

    As you' expect, there were arguments from both sides of the coin.

    Today though I got a message from Ben Johnson who is part of the games development team asking for more info on the issue and they will take a look!

    Either way I'm really pleased GW have taken the time to give this issue further thought finally.

    Wish me luck putting our case forwards!
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

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    That is excellent news, keep us posted
     
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  3. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Very good! :)
     
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  4. Ritual
    Skar-Veteran

    Ritual Well-Known Member

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    Ben is great, really on the ball with regards to rules and the FAQs - he's been active in the Death group on Whatsapp and talking to us regarding various things.
     
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  5. darren watson
    Kroxigor

    darren watson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Ben,


    I hope your day isn’t full of rhubarb like this and you don’t mind this email once you’ve read through it!



    It was originally a post about how inconsistent rules are being implemented/or appear to be implemented at events. Don't know if you remember Blood and Glory, but I asked if I could deploy me blot toad from my Rippers in the sky. The answer was no after you and Ben had read through the FAQ stating that units off the board can't affect other units with their command abilities and abilities, which wasn't a problem.


    However we (the wider Seraphon community, or what I know of it at least) feel the answer given hadn't considered the wider implications like Rippers.

    It means that when Chamo skinks disappear they can't come back onto the table as that's an ability and they are no longer on the table.

    The Celestant-Prime can't gain attacks as he isn't on the table, again this is listed as his ability, rules as written he can't even deploy.

    Pink Horrors can't split into Blue Horrors unless there are Blue Horrors on the table already (the ability to split is on the Blue Horror scroll) same for Brimstones from Blue..


    All of the above however are played (and rightly so) it would appear with rules as intended over rules as written.


    I'm not suggesting they should be changed, just feel when that FAQ was answered it wasn't meant to also bugger up shadowstrike rippers?

    Fully appreciate that not every situation can be considered when these questions come up. If it was intended to nerf Rippers, no worries I'd accept that and would think again about questioning the scene, not looking to ruffle any feathers (though I'm not the only chap that feels this way if you see the feed back from other Seraphon players in the forums etc)


    I would like to put forward a case if you do intend to clear this up in a later FAQ for shadowstrile Rippers to be exempt from this ruling, if I may.


    Seraphon historically perform badly on the competitive scene. We are moving into a heavy resistant horde meta that started with Fyreslayers and has continued with the recent releases (I love them all btw) Rippers are Seraphon's best tool to deal with the horde, but requiring 420 pts (6 rippers and the 3) to be effective is a big investment in points for an incredibly fragile unit.

    They can be countered with good deployment and movement and rewards and encourages skilled levels of play at the top tables. Giving us back our toad will mean Seraphon armies can be more diverse and help redress the balance of the game as a whole.


    Final thought.. you'll make more people happy than sad, although under represented Dinos are well loved! Either way you guys rule it, thank you for your consideration. It's above and beyond what I would have expected. Cheers-Darren
     
  6. darren watson
    Kroxigor

    darren watson Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully I've done us proud.. Sorry if not eek
     
  7. Crowsfoot
    Slann

    Crowsfoot Guardian of Paints Staff Member

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    You have so far, let's see what they come back with.
     
  8. darren watson
    Kroxigor

    darren watson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Darren,


    Be careful what you wish for....


    “The Celestant-Prime can't gain attacks as he isn't on the table, again this is listed as his ability, rules as written he can't even deploy.”


    Following this logic nor could the Rippers


    We will take a looks at this and if it needs adding to the next FAQ.


    I will get back to you next week with our thoughts but it will be totally unofficial until it’s in an FAQ.
     
  9. darren watson
    Kroxigor

    darren watson Well-Known Member

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    haha I like this response
     
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  10. darren watson
    Kroxigor

    darren watson Well-Known Member

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    Early signs aren't looking good. On Twitter Martin Morrin is favouring the toad nerf with no nerf to splits and Ben Johnson joined our Seraphon chat and has explained the differences between the toad nerf and others we've mentioned..

    I did try! Gutting.. I don't think it's going to be great year for ze phon.. Sad times
     
  11. little-myth
    Stegadon

    little-myth Well-Known Member

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    Never realised this also affected the Chameleon Skinks
     
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  12. darren watson
    Kroxigor

    darren watson Well-Known Member

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    I doubt it was meant to.. It is a poorly written answer in that respect
     
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  13. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Well, common sense said Chameleon Skinks or the Celestant-Prime weren't affected.
    But the Rippers.... that's really sad. :(

    Playing devil's advocate:
    I guess the intent was to weaken the (somewhat overplayed for a while?) Shadowstrike+Rippers alpha strike a bit in which the toad is just an extra ability that grants the extra attacks. No way for the enemy to avoid it and of course the toad will be placed exactly where the Rippers are going to strike. The tactical element is completely gone which is a pity. The cool thing about the toad is the "I block the area. You know if you move there the Rippers will come" so they kinda encourage you to put the Rippers on the board without the Shadowstrike, or pay the price of another unit.

    ....still sad. There are other, stronger armies that also use such weird synergies that weren't meant to work that way. It wasn't really broken to begin with. Yes, three attacks instead of one is a big deal, but then the enemy could still bubble-wrap to protect his stuff, and many units of the top tier armies have a good save, and positioning more than three Rippers so they could strike their target in the first round wasn't _that_ easy either.
     
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  14. Arawn
    Saurus

    Arawn Member

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    Well... the ability comes from the batallion, not from the warscroll of the Rippers...the ability to deploy in the sky (and the 2 others) cost 170pts.

    We got this in the faq 1.3 as well...
    Q: How do you deploy units in a battalion with special
    deployment rules (for example the Wood Elves Wanderer Host)?
    A: As you set up each unit, declare to your opponent if it
    is using any special deployment rules.

    And here they are considering, models not warscroll batallions:
    Q: Can models set up somewhere other than the battlefield (in
    the Celestial Realm, for example) use abilities or command
    abilities to affect other units?
    A: No. Only models deployed on the battlefield can use
    abilities or command abilities.

    Anyway it will be cool to have a real answer, even if it won't be official before the next FAQ.
     
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  15. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't there also a FAQ somewhere stating that if the warscroll of unit A said unit B could do a thing unit B could do that thing regardless of if you had unit A or not and they simply didn't update B's scroll it as that'd be a pain and would fill up unit B's warscroll too much? I remember something along those lines to explain how all summoning spells were known to every single wizard and didn't require you to field the specific unit you wanted to summon. That'd at least solve it for the blue horrors...

    By the way why exactly is the current reading that you can't deploy your toad in a shadowstrike? It only says you can deploy a toad for each unit of rippers you have. It says nothing about the rippers needing to be physically on the battlefield. Just that it needs to be part of your army. That unit in your shadowstrike is a unit you have as you've declared it as part of your army and paid it's points. It's not like you summoned them in turn 2, and thus didn't "have" rippers turn 1, but "had" reinforcement points. Where exactly does the notion come from that this specific mechanic works that way while noone's claiming similar sillyness for chameleon toads or the celestant-prime you mentioned? Is it purely on account of that F.A.Q. stating that models not on the board can't use abilities? Cuz that's a rather extremely literal reading of that F.A.Q and does indeed pose the issues that you pointed out for stuff like chameleons and horrors and the like....

    On a seperate note, why the hell did the question "can units not on the board affect the battle?" Need to be anwsered? Were people claiming there wizard was casting spells from outside the board or some such nonsense? The rippers is the only example I can think of where there's even the option for doubt as at least you can argue semantics about if they're "part" of your army or not while off the board. But that's literally the only option I can think of where there's even room for doubt if the ability works while not on the board....
     
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  16. Killer Angel
    Skink Priest

    Killer Angel Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, I cannot give more than a single like to this post.
    The way the unit and the toad works is crystal clear... if a literal reading of a FAQ leaves you with some doubt, it's self-evident that the unit still works as intended.
     
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  17. darren watson
    Kroxigor

    darren watson Well-Known Member

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    We've won!!! RIP TOAD NERF WOO!
     
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  18. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    How what where?
     
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  19. Killer Angel
    Skink Priest

    Killer Angel Well-Known Member

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    I've never doubted about it... but dumb things sometime happen, so horray. ;)
     
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  20. darren watson
    Kroxigor

    darren watson Well-Known Member

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    The faq answer that caused trouble has been rewritten
     
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