Did you remember to add in stuff like impact hits from the couldron, death hag (potentially with either strenght sword of more attacks sword), 5+ ward on witch elfs, rerolling ALL their To Wound rolls and armour piercing due to AP banner magic banner? They have a craptastic amount of special rules. 60 attacks rerolling to hit, rerolling to wound and with armour piercing and poison? Also assuming 45 attacks it would generat roughly 9½ wounds and not 15. You forgot the ward
I did not forget the ward save, witch elves do not come with one, but since they are usually fielded with a cauldron and you asked about adding more items into the witch elf unit then I present the following: My 1st addittion to the Saurus Warriors tactica, it is my personal favorite way to deal with witch elf deathstars (The unit you mention is almost 900 points). The set up I have below is something I run often but only combine the characters into the unit if fighting something like a witch elf deathstar, I usually keep them in a cold one bus, run solo, or even add them to a Krox unit depending on the situation. So remember your mileage may vary but the strategy part of this tactic is done during deployment and then the movement phase before you get charged (unless you deploy 5 wide instead of a horde), everything else is the dice lol. Mathammer Grudge Match round 2 40x Witch Elves w/FC and Razor Standard Hag with Cauldron, Brew, Cry, Ogre Blade Total Points 870 40x Saurus w/FC hand weapon and shield Scar Vet Cowboy, BSB, Dragonhelm, Obsidian Trinket, Other Tricksters Shard, LA, GW OldBlood Cowboy, Pirhana Blade, Glittering Scales, Luckstone, Potion of Strength Total Points 872 Witch Elves get the charge, saurus moved into charge range and reformed to 5 wide 8 deep plus 4, both cowboys are on the left side with the oldblood on the edge. Cauldron is in the middle with 3 and 4 witch elves to either side, the charge maximizes models by getting 5 witch elves btb (1 with only oldblood as target) along with the cauldron. Oldblood used potion of strength, witch elves could decide not to charge but then saurus will next turn so they would lose impact hits and charging CR. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Witch Elves Turn 1 Impact Hits = 3 dead saurus Hag = 6 attacks = 5 wounds = 4 dead saurus Witch Elves (With attendents)(Against Saurus) = 32 attacks = 18 wounds = 10 dead saurus Witch Elves (Against Oldblood) = 6 attacks = 2 wounds = 0 wounds Total CR = 21 Lizardmen Turn 1 Saurus = 8 attacks (6 OTS) = 3 wounds = 2 dead witch elves Cold One (Against Witch Elves)(OTS) = 2 attacks = 1 wound = 1 dead witch elf Cold One (Against Cauldron)(OTS) = 2 attacks = 1 hit = 0 wounds Oldblood = 6 attacks (+1 PF)(Against Cauldron)(OTS) = 6 wounds = Dead Cauldron Scar Vet = 5 attacks (+1 PF)(Against Hag)(OTS) = 2 wounds = Dead Hag Total CR = 17 (Lizardmen are steadfast) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Witch Elves Turn 2 (Lost hag and cauldron so no double frenzy or re-roll all wounds) Witch Elves (Against Saurus) = 25 attacks = 11 wounds = 6 dead saurus Witch Elves (Against Oldblood) = 10 attacks = 3 wounds = 1 wound (Had to happen sometime) Total CR = 7 Lizardmen Turn 2 Saurus = 9 attacks = 4 hits = 3 wounds = 3 dead witch elves Cold Ones = 2 attacks = 1 wound = 1 dead witch elf Oldblood = 6 attacks (+1 PF) = 4 wounds = 4 dead witch elves Scar Vet = 4 attacks = 3 wounds = 2 wounds = 2 dead witch elves Total CR = 15 (Witch Elves lose frenzy, and need insane courage to stay) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Witch Elves Turn 3 (no frenzy) Witch Elves (Against Saurus) = 20 attacks = 9 wounds = 5 dead saurus Witch Elves (Against Oldblood) = 8 attacks = 3 wounds = 0 wounds Total CR = 9 Lizardmen Turn 3 Saurus = 9 attacks = 5 hits = 3 wounds = 3 dead witch elves Cold Ones = 2 attacks = 1 hit = 0 wounds Oldblood = 6 attacks (+1 PF) = 4 wounds = 4 dead witch elves Scar Vet = 5 attacks (+1 PF) = 3 wounds = 3 dead witch elves Total CR = 14 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Witch Elves Turn 4 (17 left) Witch Elves (Against Saurus) = 15 attacks = 7 wounds = 4 dead saurus Witch Elves (Against Oldblood) = 8 attacks = 2 wounds = 0 wounds Total CR = 5 Lizardmen Turn 4 (8 left plus characters, after witch elf turn 4) Saurus = 9 attacks = 4 hits = 3 wounds = 3 dead witch elves Cold Ones = 2 attacks = 1 hit = 1 wound = 1 dead witch elf Oldblood = 6 attacks = 4 wounds = 4 dead witch elves Scar Vet = 5 attacks = 3 wounds = 3 dead witch elves Total CR = 14 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Witch Elves Turn 5 (6 left) Witch Elves (Against Saurus) = 10 attacks = 4 wounds = 3 dead saurus Witch Elves (Against Oldblood) = 2 attacks = 0 wounds Total CR = 4 Lizardmen Turn 4 (6 left plus characters, after witch elf turn 5) Saurus = 8 attacks = 4 hits = 2 wounds = 2 dead witch elves Cold Ones = 2 attacks = 1 hit = 0 wounds Oldblood = 6 attacks = 4 wounds = 4 dead witch elves Scar Vet = 5 attacks (Nothing left to attack) Total CR = 8 If the witch elves decided to challenge with a champion then accept with your champion, if the cauldron challenges accept with your oldblood and wreck face, don't challenge yourself or your oldblood/scarvet may be hitting a champion which is not worth it. *Note: I play without a slann almost all the time, so my list will normally include 2x oldblood and 2x scar vets, if you play with a slann then for pete's sake just buff your saurus with wissans/hand of glory/enchanted blades etc and they will do much better. But I just assume magic is going to bomb for me when I need it so I build lists without it now and if I get it off then awesome, if not then I already know what to do. Also I would in this situation keep my cold ones to the left of my saurus block to give a good LoS if needed and charge them in on my turn to further inflict massive damage and run down the fleeing suckers. I do not include this in the tactics as your enemy always has a say in your plans so I figure worst case your cold ones are dead or playing with some other elf at the moment.
Great analysis and write-up @protector I never ran the numbers on Saurus vs. Witch Elves; I'm pleasantly surprised at the result. To be honest I didn't think that saurus would even remotely stand a chance. They get such a bad rap so often that I seemed to have underestimated them. How do you feel about hand weapons vs. spears? What unit sizes do you typically field saurus in?... say @2400pts or @3000pts What core infantry do you try to keep them away from? (assuming 1 on 1, straight up, no magic)
yeah, nice with numbers. I don't always feel that one should only go by "math hammer" or whatever, but it's obviously a great tool to investigate whether or not certain engagements are worth it. Great analysis
I am not a fan of spears with saurus, I find that with striking last saurus usually don't have an extra rank to use spears with, or if they do it won't be for long. And realistically our 2A with PF front rank is where we make our money, add in our resiliency to shooting and good AS and you have a block that can make it to combat and doesn't die or run easily. Spears remove the parry save which I find to be key most of the time, since we only cause an unsaved wound on average with every 3-4 attacks then a horde formation with spears is adding at best 3 wounds to the fight, and I can easily parry 3 wounds in a horde fight, sometimes more. In 2400pts it can change for me, less than 2400 and I generally have one large unit of 30ish saurus, at 2400 I either go with a 40 horde, 2 units of 24, or 3 units of 15. I have found that even if someone has a unit that can chew through saurus at 2400 points they won't have 2 let alone 3, which allows my saurus even at M4 to control way more board space than they should be able to. At 3000pts it gets really fun, I can bring a unit of 50 saurus and still have 3 units of skirmishers to screen and shoot, most players do not know how to react to that many saurus, some get offended when they see just how much staying power and damage it can dish out. Or I just split it and do two units one of 30 and one of 20, I have played some games where it gets very competetive (bets have been made) and when that happens I have been known to field up to 50% of my army in saurus warriors, 3 hordes of 40 each control almost 3/4th of the board if not more. The only infantry (core or not) that I keep them away from are savage orc big uns, every other match up is favorable to me and how I play. The issue with big uns is that they can dish out a crap ton of damage like witch elves but do not die nearly as easily, and shooting them is a lot more fun or charging in with an armored oldblood and making them loose frenzy. Now you didn't ask but I will tell you that I personally feel saurus are the 2nd best infantry in the game, the only infantry I would choose over them is nurgle warriors. That match up though is still in my favor depending on play style because I can tar pit nurgle warriors with saurus for a couple turns, I will lose point for point but not by so much that I flee. Saurus are better than big uns because they are incredibly more resilient to shooting, a lot easier to depend on manuevering, and hold in a pinch better. Thanks, most of my input here is from games played where either me or my opponent cries foul luck and the other person says quit whining, we then get into very heated arguments and eventually play it out a couple times with dice and finally crunch the numbers to determine who really "should" win. This has provided some astounding results.
By the way what are the actual downsides using a spear. Can you reference the rule book pages. I am just planning to field about a fifty men horde of Saurus. Because I had the notion that my enemies are scared from large rectangles XD
The only downside of using spears is that you no longer get a parry save. As per the BRB, you can only claim a parry save if your unit is fighting with hand weapons and shields (page 88). So with spears you get an extra rank of supporting attacks, but you don't get a parry save. @protector : you mentioned unit sizes 20, 24 and 30. How wide would you run these units... 5 wide or 6 wide? Really? That is a bit surprising, at a quick glance they don't seem to have a significant superiority over our saurus. I haven't run the math though (I'm in a lazy mood), so I could be mistaken.
I had only one time playing against ogres an I crushed them with the Saurus but I got to charge first which meant that they have not got impact hits and they used great weapons. I did hit first lol.
Well the issue with ogres are that they enjoy one of two option to my knowledge. Either a horde of ironguts with several characters in it or a 3 wide ogre unit with the front full of characters. Both setups are dangerous especially if they get off their charge. I believe the strenght of the charge is boosted with their ranks and should they get their ogre charge it'll hurt like hell. My guess? Going up against the right ogre unit will mean the end for anything they touch. An ogre horde with no characters will have 72 S6 hits to swing. Besides, ogre players don't appear to appreciate neither the regular ogres nor the gnoblars. Unless I'm mistsienkng of course
I think Saurus actually do quite well against GW troops, as long as that is boosting the enemy to S5 not S6 (so Swordmasters, Greatswords, non-charging Hammerers). You finally get to hit first against a lot of them, bar the Elves of course but they lose their reroll. T4 vs S5 (as opposed to S6) really cuts down on the number of wounds you take. I've had a SW block take out a Swordmaster block (which also had added character support) and come out the other side at above half strength. Skink Cohorts are fine if all you want to do is tarpit a unit, but SW can actually kill stuff as well...
The issue is that the ogre unit will usually have a bunch of character you'll have a hard time wounding and besides.. Ironguts are S6
yes of course, a fully pimped OB with a Ld10 BSB Slann nearby will mean that you can completely shut down the advance of the ogre unit and flank charge it in the following round.
My opponent preferred the extra hand weapon what also counted as a shield. (something or other fist) and of course it was usually a horde with a character... and since there charge is so long they usual got the impact hits. and then hit with a ton of attacks, then I got to go then he stomps me.
So without adding in characters, which of course we can include as long as we add in our characters as well. we have the following matchup, ironguts against our very own saurus warriors, most people would think that this would go south for the lizards but keep reading, it is certainly close but I generally round down more for saurus and up more for others so I would still easily take this matchup in a game (And have before). Mathammer Grudge Match 9x Ironguts (3x3) 35x Saurus Warriors (7 wide) Ironguts charge saurus block Impact hits = 3x S6 = 3 wounds = 2 dead saurus (out of 3 wounds and 3 parry saves odds are 1 doesn’t get through) Lizardmen turn 1 Saurus Attack 33 models 7 Saurus btb = 23 attacks (+2 PF) = 12 hits = 6 wounds = 1 dead ogre (1 -2 wounds) Ogres turn 1 Ironguts Attack 8 models left 3 Ironguts btb = 18 attacks = 9 hits = 8 wounds = 7 dead saurus Stomp = 2 wounds = 1 dead saurus Lizardmen turn 2 Saurus Attack 25 models 7 Saurus btb = 24 attacks (+3 PF) = 12 hits = 6 wounds = 2 dead ogres (1 -1 wound) Ogres turn 2 Ironguts Attack 6 models left 3 Ironguts btb = 18 attacks = 9 hits = 8 wounds = 7 dead saurus Stomp = 1 wounds = 1 dead saurus Lizardmen turn 3 Saurus Attack 17 models 7 Saurus btb = 23 attacks (+2 PF) = 12 hits = 6 wounds = 2 dead ogres Ogres turn 3 Ironguts Attack 4 models left 3 Ironguts btb = 12 attacks = 6 hits = 5 wounds = 4 dead saurus Stomp = 2 wounds = 1 dead saurus Lizardmen turn 4 Saurus Attack 12 models 7 Saurus btb = 22 attacks (+3 PF) = 11 hits = 5 wounds = 1 dead ogre (1 -1 wounds) Ogres turn 4 Ironguts Attack 3 models left 3 Ironguts btb = 9 attacks = 5 hits = 4 wounds = 3 dead saurus Stomp = 1 wounds = 0 dead saurus Lizardmen turn 5 Saurus Attack 9 models 7 Saurus btb = 18 attacks (+2 PF) = 9 hits = 4 wounds = 1 dead ogres (1 -2 wounds) Ogres turn 5 Ironguts Attack 2 model left 2 Ironguts btb = 6 attacks = 3 hits = 3 wounds = 2 dead saurus Stomp = 1 wounds = 1 dead saurus Lizardmen turn 6 Saurus Attack 5 models 5 Saurus btb = 11 attacks (+1 PF) = 5 hits = 2 wounds = 1 dead ogre (1 -1 wound) Ogres turn 6 Ironguts Attack 1 model left 1 Ironguts btb = 3 attacks = 2 hits = 2 wounds = 2 dead saurus Stomp = 0 wounds Lizardmen turn 7 Saurus Attack 3 models 3 Saurus btb = 7 attacks (+1 PF) = 4 hits = 2 wounds = (1 -2 wound) Ogres turn 7 Ironguts Attack 1 model left 1 Ironguts btb = 3 attacks = 1 hits = 1 wounds = 1 dead saurus Stomp = 1 wounds = 0 dead saurus Lizardmen turn 8 Saurus Attack 2 models 2 Saurus btb = 4 attacks (+0 PF) = 2 hits = 1 wounds = 1 dead ogre And remember saurus are still better at taking shooting attacks/magic and leadership tests. I am an ogre player as well with well over 15k points in that army and I love my ironguts, but saurus are still the better core choice. I run almost exclusively 7-8 wide actually, I only ever form up 5-6 wide if I'm fighting an enemy that can throw out more damage up front than I can and I need to hold on past the 1st round, then I reform wide and start teaching them why the old ones made saurus Also I've noticed almost everyone I play against runs units based on how well they rank up on movement trays and they try to keep them symmetrical, that is a crutch that I exploit every time, it may be ugly but all I really care about is winning. And yes I have fun when I win, and a lot less fun when I lose, so playing for fun is playing to win for me.
The ironfist is a shield that allows parry saves even when mounted, it is not an additional hand weapon, those are two seperate options that cannot be taken together. You sir got played
Wow... that is quite the wide for a unit of only 20-30 models. I was thinking of 5-6 wide for ranks to claim steadfast (and deny my opponent of steadfast). You're correct. Parry saves can not be attempted against impact hits or stomps (BRB p.88)