Protector is painting saurus in a brand new light for me. I've heard so many complaints about Saurus, it's nice to see some mathematical evidence that proves otherwise.
I do wonder if we, as a community, have let us self been dictaded for too long by the competitive side of thing? What I mean is that there are clear evidence that unortodox saurus warriror units can indeed work and come out on top, on to this that our army still do posses the best mage in the game. Let's be honest here - saurus warriors are no good against WE/DE avoidance lists, but how many of us truly play against these? Most of us play in friendly environment anyway and this is the reason why I believe a tactica for saurus warriors is indeed worth the effort. I'd also argue that stuff like kroxigors and ripperdactyls have a place, but people tend to avoid them because that's not what the meta have told us. It's also what I kinda regret having told some of the new members previously. Sure skinks are likely one of the best core unit in the game and yes this is what is being prefered in a highly competitive environmen, but there's no reason not to suggest that saurus warriors cannot be used and now we have the math proving it. It reminds me of the dual carno tactica. It might not be a favorite tactic, but it's there and it's viable and it just go to show that you can indeed get your stuff to work without the slann.
Most everyone is going to be running 5-6 wide for that very reason, and if I think I'm going to lose by more than 4 points I form up to maintain steadfast. But most of the time adding in an additional 6-12 attacks tips the combat in my favor because saurus are T3H W1N lol. And thanks for pointing out my mistake, sometimes when I run numbers I forget sequencing and random rules, I try to walk it out with actual models which helps me remember all the relevent stuff but I can overlook some things. It does not though change the result besides saurus win with 1 glorious warrior standing, more accurately though it should be 3 warriors but like I said I round against them because they win too many times. *Note I have actually just finished playing a DE avoidance list (Given me by someone on this forum) in a best 3 of 5 set. It was a crushing defeat the first two times (Lizardmen won) a draw the third time, and a solid win the fourth (Lizardmen won). I played as the DEs on the third and fourth game because I know how best to counter lizardmen. I had two units of 18x saurus, one unit of 20x temple guard, 8x CoRs, and other fun things. For characters I had two priests, two scar vets, and two oldbloods. I maintain that winning games against these avoidance lists is mainly done in deployment and movement, but I will also point out that a DE avoidance list has nothing that can counter massed saurus, it seriously takes 3 DE characters all charging one unit of saurus to break it and even then if you are cunning you can set up a counter charge with your superior characters. I have not played a WE avoidance list yet but expect them to be harder due to wild riders actually able to hurt saurus unlike dark riders and warlocks.
Should you be bored I'd love to see the results against; Nurgle Haldbard Warrirors and White Lions. These are two units I dread to face. Personally I'm too lazy to run the numbers the way you do, I just look up one fight and stop there.
Here you go Mathammer Grudge Match by request 20x Nurgle Warriors w/halberds 5 wide to remove steadfast 33x Saurus Warriors w/hand weapons 7 wide because awesome Saurus charge (Because lizardmen generals are all around better than WoC) WoC Turn 1 (20 left) 5 Warriors btb = 15 attacks = 10 hits = 7 wounds = 5 dead saurus Lizardmen Turn 1 (28 left) 7 Saurus btb = 23 attacks (+2 PF) = 8 hits = 4 wounds = 3 dead warriors WoC Turn 2 (17 left) 5 Warriors btb = 15 attacks = 10 hits = 6 wounds = 4 dead saurus Lizardmen Turn 2 (24 left) 7 Saurus btb = 24 attacks (+3 PF) = 8 hits = 4 wounds = 2 dead warriors WoC Turn 3 (15 left) 5 Warriors btb = 15 attacks = 10 hits = 7 wounds = 5 dead saurus Lizardmen Turn 3 (19 left) 7 Saurus btb = 23 attacks (+2 PF) = 8 hits = 4 wounds = 3 dead warriors WoC Turn 4 (12 left) 5 Warriors btb = 15 attacks = 10 hits = 6 wounds = 4 dead saurus Lizardmen Turn 4 (15 left) 7 Saurus btb = 24 attacks (+3 PF) = 8 hits = 4 wounds = 2 dead warriors WoC Turn 5 (10 left) 5 Warriors btb = 15 attacks = 10 hits = 7 wounds = 5 dead saurus Lizardmen Turn 5 (10 left) 7 Saurus btb = 19 attacks (+2 PF) = 7 hits = 4 wounds = 3 dead warriors WoC Turn 6 (7 left) 5 Warriors btb = 12 attacks = 8 hits = 5 wounds = 4 dead saurus Lizardmen Turn 6 (6 left) 6 Saurus btb = 14 attacks (+2 PF) = 5 hits = 3 wounds = 2 dead warriors WoC Turn 7 (5 left) 5 Warriors btb = 10 attacks = 7 hits = 4 wounds = 3 dead saurus Lizardmen Turn 7 (3 left) 3 Saurus btb = 7 attacks (+1 PF) = 2 hits = 1 wounds = 1 dead warrior WoC Turn 8 (4 left) 5 Warriors btb = 8 attacks = 5 hits = 3 wounds = 2 dead saurus Lizardmen Turn 8 (1 left) 1 Saurus btb = 2 attacks (+0 PF) = 1 hits = 0 wounds WoC Turn 9 (4 left) 5 Warriors btb = 8 attacks = 5 hits = 3 wounds = 1 dead saurus Victory for Nurgle Warriors, 4 left standing Not only do they win point for point, but they are equally resistant to shooting and more effective at killing other units, these or sword and board nurgle warriors are the best infantry in the game. But hopefully this showed you just how close of a match it was.
Yeah well, hmm.. I frekking hate nurgle halbard D: In all honestly I think mark of nurgle is too powerful for WoC. It should give poison attacks. That would also promote the usage of other marks some more. But thanks for your math once again.
I agree, or have the marks also give them a negative like a drop to their weaponskill kind of like how plaguebearers have WS3 and bloodletters have WS5. Having a core with WS5 which is a hero for half the armies and then a static -1 to hit is really potent, it synergizes with a ton of other abilities which is why it needs to be toned down. But honestly if it wasn't for them then we would have the best infantry, I would be ok if they nerfed WoC magic and removed the hellcannon, if you dominate in combat then your other areas should be weak, look at dwarves they can't even cast spells. But on to another of my favorite matchup... Mathammer Grudge Match by request #2 31x White Lions 10 wide 40x Saurus Warriors w/hand weapons 10 wide White Lions charge White Lions Turn 1 (31 left) 10 White Lions btb = 30 attacks = 20 hits = 17 wounds = 14 dead saurus Lizardmen Turn 1 (26 left) 10 Saurus btb = 39 attacks (+3 PF) = 20 hits = 13 wounds = 11 dead white lions Saurus are steadfast White Lions Turn 2 (20 left) 10 White Lions btb = 20 attacks = 13 hits = 11 wounds = 9 dead saurus Lizardmen Turn 2 (17 left) 10 Saurus btb = 31 attacks (+4 PF) = 15 hits = 10 wounds = 8 dead white lions White Lions Turn 3 (12 left) 10 White Lions btb = 12 attacks = 8 hits = 7 wounds = 6 dead saurus Lizardmen Turn 3 (11 left) 10 Saurus btb = 24 attacks (+3 PF) = 12 hits = 8 wounds = 7 dead white lions White Lions Turn 4 (5 left) 10 White Lions btb = 5 attacks = 3 hits = 3 wounds = 3 dead saurus Lizardmen Turn 4 (8 left) 8 Saurus btb = 19 attacks (+3 PF) = 9 hits = 6 wounds = 5 dead white lions Saurus Victory And Saurus are still more resilient to shooting and have better leadership, they do not do as well against monsters but fair much better against other infantry, white lions are an excellent choice but saurus are certainly the better infantry. I think what a lot of lizardmen players are struggling with is unit size, they want a model that strikes last to deploy as if it strikes first and they do not build a crumple zone in, and if they do it is just not big enough. Start playing with a lot of saurus and you will see them point for point eat through almost anything (By the way it is a draw against nurgle halberds when you play 40 saurus point for point against them). And as I have mentioned before your width is very important to match ups, start thinking tactically as soon as you see what army you are playing against. Also play out inner circle knights against saurus, saurus win every time, there is a reason I get cussed out when I say I took over 50% core lol
one thing do. Do you keep your core at the minimum or do you not care? I can definately see the benefit of a saurus infantry unit. As I mentioned in my OP I'm going to mess around with a unit 7 wide, 5 deep, but that'll leave me with 3-4 skink units (haven't checked). I'm just thinking that if saurus are so good we might just add some more skinks despite already being at core minimum? Also what is your prefered setup? I can see 40 models resulting in a tool that can take on basically everything? *edit* Derp, you mentioned 50% core. Lulz *2nd edit* I'm converting my entire army into a spartan theme similar to ZaGreekie. Might be quite fitting with the saurus warriors now haha.
BLASPHEMY!!! A pox upon your scaly hide. The hellcannon is my favorite WoC model and my second favorite in all of warhammer. I love that damn thing. I'd be pissed if GW scrapped it, enough so that I would probably stick with 8th! I own 3 of them, all metal. ~rant over~ Great job on posting the numbers for Nurgle Warriors and White Lions. In your experience, how do Saurus match up against Hammerers or Ironbreakers or Plaguebearers?
Alternatively what units will roll our saurus warriors over like they were nothing? Other than monstrous cavalry *edit* I feel like a complete newbie here, but Protector comes off as a master of saurus warriors so knowledge must be obtained :3
I personally own 2, I used to have a 3rd but it was unbuilt so I traded it away, and yes I love them and include at least one in most of my WoC lists. That doesn't stop me from objectively saying that WoC should either be toned down in close combat or not allowed to have excellent shooting like marauders or hellcannons. I'm not saying that WoC is totally broken, but it is in the top 3 of all my armies and is the easiest to win with while not needing tactics. Thanks guys, I really enjoy being able to share my experience with everyone, for a long time I've only played locally and didn't really know a lot of lizardmen players. Now that I've had the time to come back online here, it felt like there was this whole consensus that lizardmen are under powered and things like saurus are not competetive, which is the opposite of all my experience, so I've been on a personal play testing crusade to vet our lizards against some of the toughest things this forum has mentioned. So here are some units I will try to keep my saurus warriors away from, this is not an exhaustive list and a lot depends on the situation, but generally saurus warriors have unfavorable matchups against these units. Hellpit Abomination - This thing eats saurus alive and won't take wounds easily, it is probably one of the only units in the game where I will try to avoid at all costs getting saurus warriors into a fight with. Chaos Knights with enscorcelled weapons - These suckers have the strength to kill saurus after the charge and still have a 2+ AS against us, so they will do about 5-6 wounds to every 1 we do back, this isn't the end of the world but they can chew through 20 and less sized units and still keep their points. Savage Orc Big Uns - Too much damage in the first round, this combined with the fact that they are the same points as saurus and generally fielded in large groups means it will be very hard to stick around after the 1st round. Never engage in building combat with them unless they have lost their frenzy!!! River Trolls - Hard to hit and hard to wound, it's not that they will walk all over us but we take a lot of damage for not much in return, they win the exchange almost every time. Chaos Warriors Nurgle/Khorne - I won't say don't engage, but plan to help your saurus out on these matchups because you want to come out keeping your points from the unit while taking his. Do not engage Khorne warriors in a building combat unless they have lost their frenzy. Stormvermin - I don't actually hold my saurus back against them, but remember that point for point you will lose the exchange and you need to have a plan to finish them off or help your saurus shut them down, with a simple buff or double charge they are easy to deal with. That's all I can think of for now, I'm sure there are more but for me everything else is fair game. I focus on winning deployment and then I go after 2-3 key matchups during movement, this allows me to control about half the combat during a game heavily in my favor the other half is lower points and/or delaying until I can bring more units into the fight.
I wouldn't classify marauders as "excellent shooting". Hellcannons can admittedly be devastating... or do nothing at all. I'm surprised to see that you didn't include Skullcrushers on your list. I think they would throw saurus a beating.
They do but he said besides MC, don't hit mournfang or demigryphs either, feed all of those to your 8x kroxigors and giggle in delight.
Yeah we can average 1 wound against 1+ MC. Best case scenario they win combat by one, but they'll still quickly eat through our block. skullcrushers will likely remove 15-17 saurus warriors before we remove one. God forbid if they have 4 models in the unit.
Whoops... missed that, my bad. Kroxigors are not all that ideal at taking those targets down, they don't have the defense for it. An Oldblood on the other hand...
An Oldblood is ideal for life, seriously the best multiple lord choices in the game. But I find that my Krox are very ideal for MC, skullcrushers are the hardest to deal with but usually I will still win that combat of 4 skullcrushers against 8 Krox easily And here is a tactic that works quite often, cast wyssans wildform on your Krox, most opponents would rather let that one go than let your saurus have it and it is easier for your priest to cast on the Krox. Then even if they get charged by 4 skullcrushers they have killed them all after the 2nd round of combat and have only lost 2 models. By the way they only lose 4 models normally to that matchup which puts us ahead all day long, do not, I repeat do not be afraid of increasing unit size and throwing units you would normally be worried about into hard fights. Mini Grudge 4x Skullcrushers w/FC 8x Kroxigors w/CH Skullcrushers charge WoC Turn 1 (4 left) 4x skullcrushers btb = 20 S5 attacks = 14 hits = 9 wounds = 2 dead Krox (1 -2 wounds) Lizardmen Turn 1 (6 left) 4x Krox btb = 21 attacks (+2 PF) = 11 hits = 9 wounds = 2 dead skullcrushers WoC Turn 2 (2 left) 2x skullcrushers btb = 10 S5 attacks = 7 hits = 4 wounds = 2 dead Krox Lizardmen Turn 2 (4 left) 4x Krox btb = 15 attacks (+2 PF) = 7 hits = 6 wounds = 1 dead skullcrushers (1 -1 wound) WoC Turn 3 (1 left) 1x skullcrushers btb = 5 S5 attacks = 3 hits = 2 wounds = 0 dead Krox (1 -2 wound) Lizardmen Turn 3 (4 left) 4x Krox btb = 15 attacks (+2 PF) = 7 hits = 6 wounds = 1 dead skullcrushers Kroxigors win with 4 left alive and overrun into the hellcannon which they then destroy and overrun into a gorebeast chariot which they decimate and overrun into etc lol
Protector - you previously mentioned something about smaller units? Basically MSU saurus warriors. Why and how? If you can elaborate I'll add your various advice to the OP to make it more complete, if that is okay with you. You've contributed quite a lot and I'd hate for it to go missing in the pages.
I've been toying with this idea for a while now in order to support my skink skirmishers. I've been finding that skinks crumble against an opponent who knows what they are doing. Skrox Darts work okay but it's a bit of a bummer to see the big guy go down to shooting and/or targeted attacks. A small unit of saurus is very maneuverable and dishes out a ton of damage all while soaking a lot of damage. They might not necessarily be able to catch a lot of stuff on the flanks but they act as board control -- if those fast cavalry get too close then poof! Sort of like a Comet of Cassandora without having to cast the spell.
I've always preferred playing with saurus over skinks, I still like the little guys but I love tearing my enemies apart, so I have over the years played hundreds of games by using saurus in ways that most would think of as strange or not competetive. One of these ways is fielding a saurus MSU army, that is multiple units of 10-15 saurus and using them almost like I would skirmishers, in a 2500 pt list I would bring 4 units of 10 and 1 unit of 18 for minimum core points, usually I go over and add another unit of 18. this allows me multiple option in deployment, if I see that I am facing an avoidance list I go for board control because I know for a fact that no unit of dark riders will be able to get through 10 saurus (a unit of 10 charging would kill maybe 2 saurus and I would kill 3-4 riders, next round is even better). Even 10 warlocks will have a hard time breaking through and if I can set it up so that they either charge a unit of 18 or get counter charged then I'm golden, because 18 saurus will eat 10 warlocks, so I just deploy wide knowing that they cannot generate enough CR to break me even if I give up steadfast. Shooting is another very fun reason to take saurus, roll the numbers and you will find that saurus are the rock to shootings scissors, even the best shooting is crap against massed numbers of our guys. So you fill out your other choices with options that can deal with what saurus cannot, and this really narrows things down because as you now know saurus can deal with almost anything. Take 3-4 saurus characters and 2 skinks with beasts plus scroll/cube and you have an 80% solution for almost every army out there, I add in a unit of temple guard and bastilodon for those savage big un fights (Or Ogres) (Add in your BSB with skavenpelt if it's a watchtower battle), those go south for the O&G player quickly when he sees I take out 10 models before he can even hit, make that 15 if you have your BSB in. I can't stress enough though how much of your battle is decided in deployment, everything from favored matchups, cover, countercharges, and even line of sight for cannons/spells is almost always decided before turn 1. Adding in a crap ton of saurus units and you will find that you can delay in combat fights that are not favorable, control most of the board, and bring a lot of attacks to bear during critical times (front and flank charge from saurus does a lot of attacks plus PF) So nuts and bolts of tactics 1) I like to have a 2/1 ratio of small saurus units to bigger saurus units - this allows me to clear chaff, absorb shooting, and still get a support flank charge in 2) unless you are going for quantity of units then stick with bigger saurus blocks - add 10-15 to what you normally field and watch them eat through other peoples elites, please hit white lions with them please 3) support saurus with high strength like krox or characters - saurus can handle almost everything except 1+ AS troops that hit hard, all of our S7 options can be very mobile so prioritize your targets 4) competetive doesn't mean fancy - in the military we have a saying "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast" that means I don't care if it takes me 4 turns to cross the board before I cause a single wound, if the end result is I catch you and crush your whole army on turn 5-6 I still win