Back in 6th when I ran MSU Saurus, I preferred to run them 6 wide, so I would end up with units of 12 or 18 pretty often, The ide was the quicker you took out the other guy the more of yours that would live.
Comparing 8 Kroxigor against 4 skullcrushers is quite a bit of a mismatch in terms of points. More realistically you have... 8 Kroxigor + ancient = 410pts 5 Skullcrushers (ensorcelled weapons) + standard + musician = 410pts Assuming that the Krox are in a 4x2 formation and the skullcrushers are in a 5x1 formation Turn #1 Skullcrushers charge (due to movement 7 vs. 6, and shift stride) 5 Riders attack (3 attacks each @S5) = 15*(2/3)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 5.556 wounds 5 Juggers attack (3 attacks each @S6 on the charge) = 15*(2/3)*(5/6) = 8.333 wounds Total wounds = 13.889 (call it 14)... 4 Kroxigor die, 1 Kroxigor wounded twice 4 Kroxigor attack (3 attacks each [4 for the ancient] + 2.2 via PF @S7 ) = 15.2*(1/2)(5/6)(2/3) = 4.22 wounds Total wounds = 4.22 (call it 4)... 1 Skullcrusher dies, 1 Skullcrusher wounded once Skullcrushers win combat by 12 (14 wounds + charge + standard vs. 4 wounds) Kroxigor need snake eyes to stick.... GAME OVER Even if somehow the Kroxigors rolled insane courage, next round it's 4 skullcrushers vs 4 kroxigor and the skullcrushers strike first. The skullcrushers will average 8.89 wounds before the Krox strike, leaving only 1 kroxigor left. So I feel that skullcrushers are a very bad match up for Kroxigor. In a straight up fight it is a very one sided fight. I'd only send them in if I had a flank charge lined up or if I was in a position where I had supreme magic dominance and the right spells. However relying on magic is risky. So unless I have a very fortunate position (flank) or I'm extremely desperate and attempting a hail mary pass, I would keep my krox as far away from the Skullcrushers as possible.
@NIGHTBRINGER I think there's an issue with your math though, You are assuming that someone would actually take 5 skullcrusher. It's more realistic to use equal point when talking infantry - I think - but here you'd almost never find anyone run skullcrushers more with more than 4 models. It's true that it's not exactly a fair matchup in that regard, but I don't think that was the intention anyway. Obviously a 1-to-1 comparison is in the favor of the skullcrushers because herp derp they are ridiculous, but realistically you won't find 5 models in one unit. At least not in my experience. Also not all juggers would be allowed to attack in the second rank - only the rider. Not that it would matter much anyway lol
It's true that I have yet to face anyone running more than 4 skullcrushers in a unit, at that point they usually break them into two units of 3. If we were going to go point for point then you are correct the Krox will lose, but you are also off a bit on your math, juggernaughts are not frenzied only the rider is. I also do not believe they are guaranteed to get a charge due to being frenzied, good use of a block of 10 saurus to force an overrun or pursuit can set you up wonderfully. If you do see a unit of 5 across from you as you are setting up your 8 Krox then remember this, you need to take 1 wound away from that unit before it charges you. that alone will turn the tide and allow you to walk away from that fight. Another tactic is to deploy 2x4 instead of 4x2, MI win all day long with supporting attacks so reducing frontage can sometime really pay off, it also forces the WoC player to split his attacks against your champion and normal krox which turns some things around. And always remember if that is one of your priority matchups then just slide that scar vet into your krox during deployment, still highly mobile and does very well against most Krox targets. And a small last point, I never have supreme magic dominence, but I do have at least 2 wyssans to cast and I almost always can get at least one off in a pinch, that changes the whole numbers game greatly. It is almost shocking how much better krox do to crushers with a wyssans.
First off, I wouldn't say that is an issue with the math. Secondly, you are correct that you seldom see more 4 skullcrushers in a unit. However I don't think it is fair to compare a 410pts unit against a 332pts unit. Also I've personally run a "deathstar" unit of 7 skullcrushers, they delete everything they touch. But I admit that it is not an ideal setup. You are absolutely correct that the juggers themselves are not frenzied, only the riders. However I did not assume that the juggers were frenzied in my calculations. The riders have two base attacks on their profile plus one for being frenzied. The juggers have 3 base attacks on their profile. I have to agree that a skullcrusher charge is far from guaranteed. I would say they have a greater likelihood of getting the charge, but movement, positioning and generalship will probably play a greater role. I was following along with the example you originally posted where you stated that the Skullcrushers had the charge. But I agree with your point. That's an interesting tactic, with such a small frontage the skullcrushers could only manage to get 3 models into b2b contact. That would leave the kroxigor with 13 attacks against the skullcrushers' 19 attacks (or 20 attacks if we assume a unit of 5). This will help the krox out a little, but they are still going to lose the fight. Additionally, it does open up a really juicy flank. I don't really think it is fair to throw a character into the mix. As good as our characters are, WoC can serve up better ones. In my opinion the "Hortennse" unkillable lord is arguably the best character in the game. Just as with the addition of a character, I don't feel it to be a safe bet to assume that you will get a boost from magic. I don't doubt that Wyssans would make a HUGE difference, but at the same point we could assume that the WoC player throws a purple sun through the Krox unit. Your opposition has just as much of a chance (or at least nearly as much, since the Slann is superior magically) of using magic to hex or buff or attack to gain an advantage for his/her side. To illustrate the point of this matchup, lets take a look at a situation where the odds are stacked against the Skullcrushers... 8 Kroxigor + ancient = 410pts [formation of 2 wide and 4 deep] 4 Skullcrushers (ensorcelled weapons) + standard + musician + razor standard = 377pts [formation of 3 wide, 1 crusher in the second rank] For the sake of argument, let's assume that neither side got charge, it's an ongoing combat 3 Skullcrusher Riders attack (3 attacks each @S5) = 9*(2/3)*(2/3) = 4 wounds 1 Skullcrusher Rider supporting (1 attack @S5) = 1*(2/3)*(2/3) = 0.444 wounds 3 Juggers attack (3 attacks each @S5) = 9*(2/3)*(2/3) = 4 wounds Total wounds = 8.444 4 Kroxigor attack (3 attacks each [4 for the ancient] + 2.2 via PF @S7 ) = 15.2*(1/2)(5/6)(2/3) = 4.22 wounds Total wounds = 4.22 So the difference in wounds is 4.22 in favor of the skullcrushers. Let's round down that to 4 and add 1 for the standard. The kroxigor just lost by 5. If we look at this in a vacuum, they need insane courage to hold. Best case scenario, they have a leadership10 BSB Slann in range, and they have to make a re-rollable leadership 5 cold blooded test. Even with everything being stacked in the Krox's favour, I don't like those odds. Please note that I did not include splitting attacks between the krox ancient and the unit for mathematical simplicities sake. It would not make a big difference either way. Add to this that skullcrushers are far resistant to spells and other match-ups and it is a really big uphill battle to say the least, IMHO.
@NIGHTBRINGER I think you're making a bigger deal out of it than necessary I think it was just a cheeky comment from Protector about what he'd do against MC. If you look at the comment he just mentioned that if anyone brings skullcrushers 8 kroxigors will quickly make them dissappear if you want a unit that'll perform better point for point we all know the OB is the perfect choice. Let's bring the discussion back to saurus warriors instead =]
That's my point, 8 kroxigor will not make 4 skullcrushers disappear... in fact, quite the opposite. Just trying to help our fellow Lustrian generals steer clear of that suicidal match-up. Of that there is no doubt! That's not even up for debate. So the question is who else should we steer clear of with our Saurus? I feel we must be missing quite a few units. Frostheart phoenix? Tzeentch Sword and Board Warriors? Ironbreakers, Hammers? Treeman? Anything else?
Those are some very interesting thoughts and numbers Nightbringer, I could have used that in my last game... I faced Chaos Warriors the other day and thought that a ripper charge in the flank and kroxigor in the front would do the trick, but that only resulted in fleeing dinosaurs all over the place Skullcrushers are scary. I don't know if anyone have other opinions about this, but Saurus Warriors in buildings seem pretty good. Played watchtower the other day and they did pretty well. Some of their archnemesi are still great against them (Chaos Warriors and the like), but things that requires supporting attacks to work, like White Lions, really lose effectiveness when they have to choose 10 models who will face our 21 Predatory Fighter attacks. Tough 4 also helps against the pesky shooting and flaming range attacks (Somewhat atleast). This only goes double for Temple Guard but hey, core units who can hold the primary objective reasonably well is pretty good I think. (And when the alternative is skink cohorts...)
Having gone of the math myself, somewhat at least, I too am failing to see how 8 kroxigors vs 4 skullcrushers would fare well. They'll remove our champ (assuming they have one) and 7 additional wounds in the first round of combat, before we hit. That'll leave us removing 5 of their wounds, but unless we can reliably remove 6 of their wounds they'll be hitting like a truck for a second round. <.<
I'm not too worried about that match up with my saurus (min 30 model unit). Assuming you don't let yourself get flanked he's already in the hole by 3-4 combat resolution and you'll be steadfast for a long time. He's got at best 10 S6 attacks but realistically he'll miss with 1 of his attacks and can only count on 3-4 thunderstomp wounds (of which 1 will likely fail to wound). Sword and board or EotG sways this even further (and I'm not going to mention foot characters). Your weight of attacks should slowly whittle that bastard down.
you'll likely lose 6 models a turn and hardly do a thing to it. It's not whether or not saurus warriors will get crushed, but rather if it's a combat we will want to do. The frost fvcker can hold our entire unit by itself for quite some time.
Thanks Nightbringer for pointing out how dangerous skullcrushers are, I agree with almost all of your points and only provide this last follow up as an example of how I usually deal with them for other lizardmen generals awareness. Mini Grudge round 2 for added tactics 8 Kroxigor + ancient 4x2 4 Skullcrushers (ensorcelled weapons) 4x1 Kroxigors charge (Yay!) remember that you need to get as many models in btb as possible, other than that you are free to maneuver and so I make sure that the WoC player will have to divide attacks if possible against the champion, this almost always makes a big difference. SC/SC/SC/SC CH/KX/KX/KX KX/KX/KX/KX WoC Turn 1 (4 left) 3 Riders attack the normal Krox (3 attacks each @S5) = 9*(2/3)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 3.333 wounds 3 Juggers attack the normal Krox (3 attacks each @S5) = 9*(2/3)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 3.333 wounds Total wounds = 7 (if we add the .33 from both to round up) = 2 Kroxigors dies, 1 Kroxigor wounded once 1 Rider attacks the ancient Krox (3 attacks each @S5) = 3*(2/3)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 1.111 wound 1 Jugger attacks the ancient Krox (3 attacks each @S5) = 3*(2/3)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 1.111 wound Total wounds = 2 = Ancient Kroxigor wounded twice CR = 9 Lizardmen Turn 1 (6 left) 6 Kroxigor attack (3 attacks each [4 btb +1 from ancient] (+2 PF) @S7 ) = 21.167*(1/2)(5/6)(2/3) = 5.88 wounds Total wounds = 6 = 2 Skullcrushers die CR = 7 WoC Turn 2 (2 left) 1 Riders attack the normal Krox (3 attacks each @S5) = 9*(2/3)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 1 wound 2 Juggers attack the normal Krox (2 attacks each @S5) = 6*(2/3)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 2 wounds Total wounds = 3 = 1 Kroxigor dies, 1 Kroxigor wounded once 1 Rider attack the ancient Krox (3 attacks each @S5) = 3*(2/3)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 1 wound Total wounds = 1 = Ancient dies CR = 5 Lizardmen Turn 2 (4 left) 4 Kroxigor attack (3 attacks each [4 btb] (+2 PF) @S7 ) = 14*(1/2)(5/6)(2/3) = 3.889 wounds Total wounds = 3 (call it 3 because we rounded up last time) 1 Skullcrusher dies CR = 3 WoC Turn 3 (1 left) 1 Riders attack the normal Krox (3 attacks each @S5) = 9*(2/3)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 1.111 wounds 1 Juggers attack the normal Krox (2 attacks each @S5) = 6*(2/3)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 1.111 wounds Total wounds = 2 = 1 Kroxigor dies CR = 3 Lizardmen Turn 3 (3 left) 3 Kroxigor attack (3 attacks each (+1.5 PF) @S7 ) = 10.5*(1/2)(5/6)(2/3) = 2.917 wounds Total wounds = 3 = 1 Skullcrusher dies CR = 3 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now there is actually an issue with running the math like above, typically in true math not including decimals will result in compounding errors. But when doing statistical analysis it is important to remember that the only result for each step is a full number, dice have no decimals, which is why I try to keep my estimates in the hits/wounds format like before. Statistically speaking if I have two groups of attacks wound 3.333 times each that should equal 6 wounds as it is more than likely that each set does 3 wounds. let's run with them getting charged and not splitting attacks on the champion but rounding for dice rolls. 8 Kroxigor + ancient 5 wide because they know they are charging into the teeth 4 Skullcrushers 4 wide because that is how they kill things Kroxigors charge (Yay! x2) SC/SC/SC/SC CH/KX/KX/KX/KX KX/KX/KX WoC Turn 1 (4 left) 4 Riders/Juggers attack the normal Krox (3 attacks each @S5) = 24 attacks = 16 hits = 11 wounds = 9 unsaved wounds Total wounds = 9 = 3 Kroxigors dies CR = 10 Lizardmen Turn 1 (5 left) 5 Kroxigor attack (3 attacks each [5 btb +1 from ancient] (+3 PF) @S7 ) = 19 attacks = 10 hits = 9 wounds = 6 unsaved wounds Total wounds = 6 = 2 Skullcrushers die CR = 7 Kroxigors lose by 3 and probably stay WoC Turn 2 (2 left) 2 Riders/Juggers attack the normal Krox (3 attacks each @S5) = 12 attacks = 8 hits = 5 wounds = 4 unsaved wounds Total wounds = 6 = 2 Kroxigors dies CR = 5 Lizardmen Turn 2 (3 left) 3 Kroxigor attack (3 attacks each [3 btb +1 from ancient] (+2 PF) @S7 ) = 12 attacks = 6 hits = 5 wounds = 3 unsaved wounds Total wounds = 3 = 1 Skullcrusher dies CR = 3 Krox lose combat but most likely stay, and so ... WoC Turn 3 (1 left) 1 Rider/Jugger attack the normal Krox (3 attacks each @S5) = 6 attacks = 4 hits = 3 wounds = 3 unsaved wounds Total wounds = 3 = 1 Kroxigors dies CR = 4 Lizardmen Turn 3 (2 left) 2 Kroxigor attack (3 attacks each [3 btb +1 from ancient] (+1 PF) @S7 ) = 8 attacks = 4 hits = 3 wounds = 2 unsaved wounds Total wounds = 2 = 0 Skullcrushers die, 1 skullcrusher wounded twice CR = 2 Krox lose combat but most likely stay, and so ... WoC Turn 4 (1 left) 1 Rider/Jugger attack the normal Krox (3 attacks each @S5) = 6 attacks = 4 hits = 3 wounds = 2 unsaved wounds Total wounds = 3 = 0 Kroxigors dies, 1 kroxigor wounded twice CR = 3 Lizardmen Turn 4 (2 left) 2 Kroxigor attack (3 attacks each [3 btb +1 from ancient] (+1 PF) @S7 ) = 8 attacks = 4 hits = 3 wounds = 2 unsaved wounds Total wounds = 2 = 1 Skullcrusher dies CR = 2 Krox win combat This is key to remember if you like to run Krox and face off against these guys, try your hardest to take out at least 1 wound on them before they engage you. It is very likely that you will not cause 6 wounds and then this whole thing turns into a bloodbath because they hit so hard, do not take them for granted. If you get the charge you have a decent chance unbuffed, if they get the charge you are going to be fleeing 1st round. Of course a work around is to have a unit of 20+ saurus take the charge and then get a good flank charge in, that will save both units. *Note Besides characters there is no point for point solution in our army book to skullcrushers, handle with extreme tactics (not caution, just have a plan and execute decisively)
I agree that WoC can create one or two better characters, still not sure about point for point, my weight for lizardmen characters is that we can easily create more that outperform the WoC ones at a much cheaper value. I believe that WoC have the best of almost everything in this game, but that lizardmen are a very close 2nd and with cheaper options if we can out think them we can win consistently, that has been my experience. I also own a 10K point WoC army which I play with/against very often. I think you are forgetting a Krox in that calculation, you are also not adding in predatory fighter attacks. Actually a skullcrusher averages 2 wounds on a Krox so that champ would not have died, giving me 6 Krox to hit back with which really is the key to turning the entire combat on its head from crushing defeat to a very solid win. They will have and have, multiple times, to the point that when I face a WoC opponent although he isn't scared of them he will try not to deploy in their area so that they can have a better chance to survive and wreck my face. I agree that the Frostheart isn't that much of an issue, we can grind it down and if a S6 T6 flying monster is spending all game getting killed by a unit of saurus I think we win that exchange. It is a very tough opponent and can swing a lot of other combats that I would rather keep it out of, so actually I would steer saurus towards it. Tzeentch warriors don't do as well as nurgle warriors so it turns out to be a pretty even fight point for point, I would rather have my saurus hit them instead of my higher value attacks due to their parry save. Of course a good Steg charge into that unit with thunderstomp can really make them hurt. Ironbreakers are the same as T warriors, nothing to steer clear of, hammerers I would actually hit as we are evenly matched or it leans towards us due to them hitting last. Treeman? Hmmm that is a probably I would think As stated above I would definitely want that combat, anything that can take away a force multiplier from my opponent and allow me to gain flexibility or longer term victory points. Remember even with most of the above examples we are taking our core point for point into other armies special and rare, that leaves our special and rare to hit them where we want because their core can't do the same thing (WoC are the exception, it takes a better general to beat them)
I wouldn't say we're that close to WoC. WoC are a top tier army while Lizardmen are middle tier. Good catch about the PF attacks... my bad. I've made the corrections in the calculations. I'm not missing any krox in the calculations because that scenario has the kroxigor deployed as 2 wide and 4 deep as you had suggested in your previous post. As a result you have 2 kroxigor in b2b and another 2 making supporting attacks. Leaving one kroxigor in the third rank doing nothing. Brain fart on my part... the skullcrusher should only average 2.67 wounds (razor standard was included). Kroxigor still lost that fight by 5 and more than likely break.
Don't know what to tell you Taco. My main opponent is my buddy's HE and he gave up on running the Frost Chicken because it couldn't break anything. I kept telling him to use it in support of other units but the only time he ever did was against OB Cowboys and Razor TG and was disappointed each time. Honestly with how powerful the Spearman High/Beasts Bus is I'd feel glad that some numb-skull spent 200+ points on a frost chicken instead of better support for their broken ass 3++ horde. His latest abomination has 10 Nobles with 2 hand weapons in the front rank. <shiver>
10 Nobles!?! (yet another reason why 50% Lords and Heroes is game-ruiningly stupid) But, Sword of Antiheroes anyone?
honestly who cares. OB is T5 and p1ss easy to get to 1+ armour. They won't do sh1t with their S4, even if they reroll.
So here is a question, if Saurus warriors are so great, why are skink clouds and MSU Lizardmen armies typically found at the top in terms of competitiveness? Is this because M4 infantry, no matter how comparably good to other infantry, does not cut it at the highest levels? Or is it simply that Saurus have gotten an undeserved bad reputation?