8th Ed. Lizardmen personalities

So I was studying our ancient text of truths and possibilities (aka the army book) and started pondering the question wether or not a lizardmen can be considered a person. To me atleast the saurus and Kroxigor seem little more then drones. They have a single goal and don't seem to have an actual free will outside (or maybe even inside) their pre-destined purpose.
Skinks on the other hand seem to have at least somewhat of an own mindset and that the Slann have their own personality is a given. But I am really wondering about the rest.
What do you think, do our subjects that we throw into mortal danger for our own amusement actually have a personality or are they more like drones?

 

I think that the older a saurus gets, the more it can act on its own.
They grow more "mature" and develop different understandings of their environment than their kin.

Example: Gor-rok is described as being especially fierce, where Kroq-Gar is far more calculating.
while skinks express way more personality in human sense, I would say its wrong to say that sauri are drones.

You could say that a Saurus is like a human baby (minus the inate warriors prowess and thick scales).
Most babies are like other babies, it takes time to develop personal traits.

Kroxigors on the other hand is described as simple...I think it takes very special circumstances for them to differentiate.
Examples exist though: Nakai being the only one I can think of.

 

I wouldn't call Saurus "drones". For me they have much more simple personality where everyone's goal i destroying the enemy. I wouldn't say that they are like babies. Older sauri like scar-veterans have just much more space to express themselves e.g. rank and file saurus may be fierce or more cold-blooded in CC, when he gets to command he still would be more fierce or cold-blooded.

But Kroxigors are like babies - with own undeveloped personality with no space to show it ("do this", "clear that", all the time).

 

To me it feels like recent publications have "roboticised" Lizardmen, particularly Saurus. I don't know whether it's just me picking up on it more because I'm older now, or that it has actually changed over the years but it just seems to be the case.

I for one think that giving your characters a bit more depth and, dare I say it, "humanity" allows you to empathise more with your chosen army. It's why even though Tyranids (40k) were my first army I found it hard to think of them as my army, any why I felt Necrons (again, 40k. It's in my blood sorry!) were boring at the time of their release in 3rd edition 40k. Your General is supposed to represent you on the battlefield - by making him/her/it too alien for you to relate to it really detracts from the immersion of the hobby and really makes it nothing more than a game (which is 100% OK if that's what you like about Warhammer).

With Lizardmen you can get around this in a few ways without breaking the fluff depending on who your "characters" are, who you see yourself as and who you want to interact with who.

Skinks are easy. They're the most human of all the Lizardmen species. They're nimble minded, independent and capable of quickly learning new roles within Lizardmen society depending on the current need. They're warriors, artisans, scholars, priests, labourers, hunters, messengers, clerks, accountants, herdsmen, traders. Almost any human occupation can be paralleled by skinks. The only thing to keep in mind with Skink characters is that unlike humans they will never be entirely self serving. Yes they might be greedy, selfish or cowardly but ultimately their loyalty lies with their City, the Slann and the Old Ones and that loyalty is unflinching.

Saurus are a mixed bag. I like to think of them like domestic dogs. There are hundreds of different subspecies of Saurus that were selectively spawned for specific traits (like a dog breeder will breed/crossbreed certain species or individuals to obtain certain physical traits or temperaments). Some are spawned for cold emotionless robotic killing, some are spawned for unflinching loyalty, some for bloodthirsty ferocity. Some because they have harder skin, sharper teeth, certain colours, longer tails. Some are placid and slow to rouse without orders, some twitchy and quick to kill. The possibilities are pretty broad as long as you remember at their core they are sill Saurus Warriors - selectively bred as obedient soldiers in a genocidal campaign against everything their creators perceived as wrong. Some will be dumb dumbs that only know how to say "Hulk smash", some will be very keen minded with an immaculate attention to detail but might have very poor communication faculties outside of body language. Some might be super smart and understand everything that's going on around them, but due to their preconditioned purpose it just might not occur to them to tell anyone what they know.

Kroxigor are also pretty easy. They're the most robotic and mindless subspecies, but that doesn't make them uninteresting clones. Think of them of an extreme case of the domestic dog analogy above - they're bred to be big and strong and loyal and all that annoying intelligence has been bred out of them. They're big and oafish, but they still form bonds of companionship with their fellow Lizardmen - especially Skinks (who would directly interact and communicate with them much more than Saurus would). They are the big friendly guard dog that knows the family and wouldn't hurt a fly.... unless that fly strayed onto his territory or his owner says "kill".

 

The entire reason for the existence of "the Spawning of Bob" is the disconnect between the cold-blooded, robotic background of the GW fluff and its contrast to the actual gaming reality.



LM run away from goblins. They get stupid. Their "bred for slaughter" elite saurus have a laughable weapon skill. They misfire. They have a comical giant bow. And a monster that sneezes for a ranged attack but has no eyes.

IF the entire LM army caused fear and were immune to psychology (with the possible exception of skinks) THEN the gaming and the fluff would line up and we would have little to talk about.

BUT our armies are as fallible as our dice rolls. We can go on saying they are the ultimate killing machines having a bad day, but it is so much more fun to say, they are utterly noble in their intent but suffer from not understanding the Great Plan, and being reckless, foolish, cowardly, proud, heroic and plain unlucky on any given day. They may also be suffering from conservatism or lack of evolution / adaptation to a changing world.

The further you push those ideas, the closer the LM come to being like us: Human. Ish.

Whether the disconnect between the ideal and the reality comes across as comedy or tragedy depends on your point of view.

My point of view is demonstrably twisted.

Here you go @Guran :

..........___
.....__/.......\__
.../_________\.. ..\
...G|....o._.<.).... ..|
......\_ _ ---_/....... ..|
.......[\\ ====B=-----|--------->
....../...o.......o\\===B
.....|..................|.... .|
...../NNNNNNN\.,.. |
.....MMMMMMM. ./
........|...]......|...]
........HHH...HHH

It is the wise but comical chief of the Pygmy Poison People*



* for those who came in late....

 

I'll say that It's very much a question of perspective. The Sauruses could be concidered drones, since they fulfill they duty, but as Bob suggest, their are not unbreakable and Immune to psychology, so they will from time to time run. Instinct thus takes over, just like with other creatures that are not mindless drones. Which is a very valid point, there are more alike children, dogs or other creatures attuned to obey their master, but not without flaws (or character). Kroxigors are simply beasts, I think it's even described in the Army Book (Maybe not in 8th, though) that they were breed for building and carrying heavy loads. They are more alike working beasts, than actual sapient (Intelligent within a human level) beings. However I do believe and it does seem like Sauruses gets more of a personality as they grow up; Bare in mind that the saurus warriors you field on the table most likely are supposed to be younglings, send out into battle for the first time.

 

The saurus don't seem like robots to me. Robotic, yeah, but not fully devoid of free will. They appear to be able to develop personalities, though their minds are hardwired to think in certain ways. So long as their core is how to wage war, serve their masters, and kill anyone they get told to kill, they appear to be able to develop their personalities. Be it Kroq's calculated cunning, Gor-Rok's especial savagery, or Chakax's intense willpower.

 

One of the main differences is that they have a completly different mindset than humies, so there slowness can be easily mistaken as stupidity or even not being sentient on their own which is not the case. Their " private life " usually is not visible to the other folks which the mostly encounter as a well oiled war maschine.

In any case they are not robots which robot would play Blood Bowl?

 

I see saurus more like I view sharks, they are the ultimate bred killing machine in their environment, they need no training to seek out and destroy their prey, some sharks are faster or more prone to random visciousness but all are created by their nature to be deadly killing machines.

But just because they are the ultimate killer doesn't mean they have no weakness or that they cannot be beat at their own game, sharks are not immune to psychology and can be scared, but no one should say they aren't born to kill lol. On topic though I do believe they all have an individual personality, they communicate through different means but each one is autonomous.

Does anyone remember our old special character who had crocodile jaws? His ability was killing blow with a bite attack I think, pretty cool... and OT

 

You mean like Tiktaq'To, Grymloq & Lord Kroak? I was always fond of the cheesy names in the army. I'd rather have those names than Tyrion, Malekith, and Orion in an Lizardmen army.

 

Itzi Bitzi?



Please tell me it was a skink character. that would be so choice.

 

That's Awesome!

 

I don't care what anyone says I love Itzi Bitzi.

Regarding Saurus, I consider them individuals with there own personality, skills etc. However, they differ from Skinks by their objectivity, stoicism (Temple Guard being their best example of this), and their less complex social structure - they see little use in the many deliberations and interactions of skink culture.

 

Didn't Itzi Bitzi have companions? Teeni Hueeni and ... what was the other one?

 

Pokka Dot Biki-nee?

 

Pokka Dot Apostropheeni?

If Scalenex said he likes the 10% pun names didn't he? Or was he plastered the night before?