After reading the lists, it sounds like you took a lot of high-end choices, where he didn't field many. I mean no offense because I have no idea what volume of troops he fielded, but that's just how it looks to me. Ah, your opponent boxed themselves in then. As people become more acquainted, I am positive that there will be tactics which counter this. It's *sort of* about that, yes. Some combats can be tipped quite harshly, especially by Seraphon's potent units... but, again, the rules have been out for 3 or 4 days now (it's not Midnight just yet EST!), and I think that as time goes on, tactics will evolve. Tell you what; how about this?: I was having some small scrums with myself earlier, and retreating with terradons to actually fly OVER the charging unit in question in order to drop rocks (retreating takes place in the movement phase, after all) presents a *massive* tactical advantage to the player who retreated. Let's say that you take 10 Terradons as a warscroll. You lose a few in combat, so you decide to retreat, get their worth before they all die, and drop rocks. For every two terradons, you're looking at 2 Mortal Wounds on average in this Movement phase alone. 6 or 7 Terradons could likely pump out 5-7 Mortal Wounds (that's a very conservative estimate; I rolled 10 Mortal Wounds), plus a ton of wounds from Sunleech Bolas in the following turn. Battleshock will cause some problems here for quite a lot of units... in this turn, I reckon one-wound units will lose 3-4 additional models (again, very conservative... the unit I rolled against lost 8). We're already up to 8-11 casualties in one turn from a unit that should have been dead in combat. If you can land your 2 Terradons (one being the Alpha) within 5" after dropping rocks, and prevent the retreat (not hard to do against infantry since your move is 14"), use Sunleech Bolas in the following turn for another 2-4 wounds on average due to their D6 wound characteristic, though these have saves. If they score 4 hits, which is probable, that's... 14 wound rolls for 7 wounds? So, 6-7 Terradons against a 4+ save, we're looking at 4 unsaved wounds from Bolas, putting the unit at a -4 already, making a Bravery 8 unit break even on Battleshock BEFORE combat. Now, the Swooping Dive: most infantry is probably trapped now, forced to remain stationary. That ensuing combat (if you lose no terradons, which, admittedly, is unlikely because your opponent is reelingat this point) will probably see two wounds per terradon, for 8-14 unsaved wounds. That is going to lead to a BAD Battleshock phase. After everything, you're looking at around 30 wounds from a unit that would have been dead... If you're playing with wound counts, then that unit is simply gone. The craziest thing about all of this is that with decent positioning, the 8"-move Skinks can step out of the combat and screen the terradons AGAIN, potentially disrupting this enemy unit from receiving any support. O_O This is especially easy to pull off if you're using a Slann general and give them Gift of the Heavens, letting them just fly directly over everything. Those are pretty conservative numbers, too. Here are some dice rolls: Spoiler Just the six terradons against a 4+ save unit now: <chris> - Terradons are involved in combat, have lost 4 models. They fight back: <chris> - (With an Alpha, mind you) <chris> rolls 24 dice, 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound... * 14 out of 24 dice hit (4+) = (6,6,6,6,6,5,5,5,5,5,4,4,4,4,3,3,3,3,3,2,2,2,1,1) * 9 out of 14 dice wound (4+) = (6,6,6,6,5,4,4,4,4,3,3,2,2,1) * Amounting to 9 wounds. <chris> - They are fighting something with a 4+ save. <chris> rolls 9 dice, 4+ to save... * 6 out of 9 dice save (4+) = (6,5,5,4,4,4,3,1,1) * Amounting to 6 saves, being 3 wounds. <chris> - It takes three wounds unsaved, with 8 Bravery. * <chris> rolls a D6 = 5 <chris> - Passes Battleshock. <chris> - Terradons pass Battleshock at Bravery 10. <chris> - Lizards get their turn. <chris> - Terradons flee, fly over unit, drop rocks. * <chris> rolls 6D6 = 6,3,6,6,6,6, Added to each Die = 0 <chris> - 5 will drop rocks. * <chris> rolls 5d6 = 2,6,6,4,3 <chris> - converts to 1, 3, 3, 2, 2. That makes 11 Mortal Wounds. <chris> - Let's assume that they land safely, are screened, and prevent retreat. <chris> - In shooting and combat, the enemy unit is likely taking wounds... but we won't count those, just for fun, despite that they are likely significant. <chris> - 11 Mortal wounds, Bravery 8, Battleshock test. * <chris> rolls a D6 = 1 <chris> - 11 + 1 = 12 <chris> - 12 vs Bravery 8, = 4 models flee. <chris> - 4 casualties, 11 unsaved wounds. <chris> - Following turn: Terradons are screened, and do not get charged. <chris> - Moving, fly to a place to open the charge up for them. <chris> - Terradon shooting now: <chris> rolls 5 dice, 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound... * 2 out of 5 dice hit (4+) = (5,6,1,2,1) * 2 out of 2 dice wound (1+) = (1,1) * Amounting to 2 wounds. <chris> rolls 1 dice, 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound... * 1 out of 1 dice hit (3+) = (5) * 1 out of 1 dice wound (1+) = (4) * Amounting to 1 wound. <chris> - 3 hits * <chris> rolls 3D6 = 6,6,2 <chris> - 14 wound rolls, 4+/4+ <chris> rolls 14 dice, 1+ to hit, 4+ to wound... * 14 out of 14 dice hit (1+) = (6,6,5,5,4,3,2,2,2,1,1,1,1,1) * 7 out of 14 dice wound (4+) = (6,6,6,5,5,4,4,3,3,3,2,2,1,1,) <chris> rolls 7 dice, 4+ to save... * 4 out of 7 dice save (4+) = (6,5,5,4,3,2,2) * Amounting to 4 saves, being 3 wounds. <chris> - 3 unsaved wounds from shooting. Up to 4 casualties, 11 unsaved wounds, -3 on Battleshock. <chris> - They commit a swooping dive and charge. <chris> rolls 24 dice, 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound, rerolling missed hits, rerolling failed wounds... * 10 out of 24 dice hit (4+) = (6,6,6,6,6,5,5,5,5,5,3,3,3,3,3,3,2,2,2,1,1,1,1,1) * Rerolling 14 dice: 10 out of 14 rerolled dice hit (4+) = (6,6,6,5,5,5,5,4,4,4,3,3,2,2) * 6 out of 20 dice wound (4+) = (6,5,5,4,4,4,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,2,2,2,2,1,1,1) * Rerolling 14 dice: 7 out of 14 rerolled dice wound (4+) = (6,6,5,5,4,4,4,3,3,2,2,1,1,1) * Amounting to 13 wounds. <chris> rolls 13 dice, 4+ to save... * 8 out of 13 dice save (4+) = (6,6,5,5,5,4,4,4,2,2,2,1,1) * Amounting to 8 saves, being 5 wounds. <chris> - 3 unsaved wounds from shooting, 5 unsaved wounds from combat, -8 for Battleshock. Previous 4 casualties, 11 unsaved wounds. <chris> - Battleshock test at -8, Bravery 8 * <chris> rolls a D6 = 4 <chris> - 4 more models flee. <chris> - 28 casualties with 6 Terradons and somewhat 'meh' rolls (probably should have been 30+, perhaps mid-30s on average) against models with Bravery 8 and a 4+ save (pretty potent models, these) by themselves... Imagine what they can do against lesser models, or with a Skink Chief buffing their shooting via Skink War Leader (+1 to hit w/ everything), or with some Razordons nearby in case of a counter-charge. Opponent be like... while you're all... While I'm not saying, "Get charged just so you can retreat," it's wise to expect more feints like this as people familiarize themselves with the game. This, after all, is just cavalry's specialty. After playing my first game, I realized that it really does not need to end in a bloodbath in the middle of the board -- same as 8th. I cannot wait to try new things with monsters. Utilizing a combined force of Rippers, Skinks & Cold Ones (Cold Ones as bait) is incredibly effective, too. With such high movement scores, it's very unlikely that they'll have no place to go unless, again, the person plays poorly and lets themselves get boxed in by not setting up some kind of perimeter. That perimeter, to me, is where battalions shine. Both of ours are good in that role, with a slight edge to the Skink Patrol. Really, the movement phase has never felt this important to me in my 8+ years of gaming. Not really familiar with Skavens' dynamics, but I've got the same question as Pendrake. I suppose that if you consistently roll extremely well for the Bastiladon, it can do a fair bit of damage... but for the most part, I see it causing like 6 wounds per turn. That's a lot in the context of 8th, and it's even pretty good in terms of AoS, but it's hardly gamebreaking in AoS... and, again, no offense, but the "50-100%" with just one Bastiladon in turn 1-2 seems exaggerated.
Not really, unlike the skaven I actually took previous core choices, same with ogres against O&G. The problem may be that a 1 wound temple guard is just out right better than a 1 wound stormvermin but with no points there is no balance other than wounds. Well against my lizardmen army I take no battleshock tests so that is moot, against my ogre army first you have to figure in my shooting and an actual combat phase. Take for example the first two combats against my ogres, each unit I hit immediately took 2d6 mortal wounds during charge phase, take another 6 mortal wounds from shooting (all I need is a 2+ on one dice for those 6 wounds), and then during combat my stonehorn goes 1st and causes about 9 more unsaved wounds. Your unit of 10 terradons are now down to 3 and I still have a unit of mournfang to hit with, and I did this using 24 wounds of monsters who have an 8 and 12" move and charge on 3 dice. With an unmodifiable 3+ save I can run it up the middle, an 8" range on a large monster can easily get me 4-5 units in range. That means it is causing on average 8-10 wounds per turn, once I field all 4 of mine that means I'm dishing out 32-40 wounds. Of course if we are playing competitively then I would be fielding the best choices available to me, so I would also have 4 thundertusks, 3 war hydras, 4 reaper bolt throwers, 4 repeater bolt throwers, and 3 flame phoenix. Look up the rules on these models and you will see that causing a grand total of 100+ wounds is very easy without even getting into combat all for under 200 wounds myself. So yes the one bastiladon was not what I was talking about, instead I meant that I could easily field an army of monsters whose shooting abilities are crazy powerful. I feel like I would really enjoy playing a game against you, but even as I wargame against myself I end up either playing for fun or using the nuclear option. Someone in authority needs to take the red button away or else I'm just going to keep pushing it lol
It's difficult to speak to your other points, but I feel ya on the need for an authority. As balanced as I feel my system is, it is a pain in the neck to enforce the, "No, really, take my word for it.. it works." thing, even after GW apparently leaked an e-mail recommending a nearly identical system.
I saw that email Razordon and thought of your post. Now, my lizards are nowhere near what I assume is the average here, as it is my 2nd army. Even my primary (OnG) is barely 2500 points. The main point I'm seeing for AoS, from GWs view point, is to just take the models you want. Well cool models got me into this game, surely this must be a great thing! But then I meet even a fluffy list from someone with access to some of these kick-tail units and I know I'm going to get stomped. That's fine, I'll learn. But, if a unit can do 100+ average wounds no worries, well bone me. I can't compete with that without $$ sinking with my current collection. Not regulating myself to the kiddie table, but I'll be the one in the corner with a small fluffy list playing newbies. I rock vs newbies.
Personally, I'd respond to a list like that the same way I'd respond to a list with the 3+ rerollable ward save Chaos Lord on a disc, and plenty of the other WAAC tricks of 8th: "Sorry, but no thanks." Have you tried AoS yet? What are your thoughts?
which exemplifies where AoS is going, it may very well be a great beer and chips game. But I guarantee you couldn't say that to an opponent in a tournament, and personally I would never restrict someone from trying their absolute hardest to beat me. Just like I wouldn't refuse to play someone who fields a slann with cogitation and channel staff. Anyone making a fully legal choice for the desire to win isn't bad at all and in fact provides a much better game experience for me instead of someone who expressly limits his own best choices, whether in army building or tactical choices in the movement phase. and that is really the issue here, I think very few people dislike the AoS game mechanics. But if I was to play 8th and always purposely field a slann but refuse to cast with him, or decide to not make a crucial charge my regular opponents would get frustrated with me, we want to try and win not just arbitrarily handicap ourselves. If AoS is really only for non competitive friendly play then as great as it may be it just isn't for me.
I believe that even with a points system in place, the game mechanics of AoS are most definitely inferior to 8th edition. As far as making army selection goes, I see nothing wrong with taking extremely hard lists or fluffy themed lists. I believe a great game can be had either way. Personally I usually aim for more competitive lists, but I have no problem with others who prefer to play softer lists.
Well i think people are confusing a few things. Yeah,, 2 3+ rerollable ward save is a complete f-up of the Army book designer, as is the Banner of the World of game breaking, etc.etc etc. However, that does not mean the game mechanics of 8th are flawed. On the other hand, that there are no more unkillable things in AoS does not mean that the game mechanics are good.
No no, all that I'm saying is that the decision of who to play against/what lists to play against is ultimately up to the player, and that that hasn't changed. 8th was littered with imbalances, and I'm sure that AoS is too -- but that's GW for ya.
fair enuf But although i quoted your example, i actually ment my comment in a general way and it was not aimed at you. I so far have seen many arguments about the old and new game where people are mixing up the game mechanics and the details that make or break the mechanics. if you understand what i mean
Sotek says "What?!?" I hate the game mechanics of 8th. Steadfast removed the need to maneuver in that game and lead to the massive unit size inflation we still see in AoS. Once I got over my WTF reaction to AoS I'm starting to think this could be better than 8th edition. I haven't played yet but thinking I might challenge my lizards with my tomb kings and see if I can outsmart myself. Mostly I'm just worried what seraphon are going to look like when they get redesigned. Based on the lizard themes of the stormcast I think we are going to look very different.
Nope but the battle cat thing looks kind of lizard/dragon like and the Seraphon joined up with Sigmar supposedly after meeting his pet dragon-god Dracothion while they were in Azyr so I'm guessing that DuffyBear's rumor about lizardmen becomming more draconic in look is likely true. Sorry to derail the thread.