My 3++ (re-rolling 1's) disc riding Chaos lord does not like this! I like it Too strong in my opinion I'd be happy with just the reintroduction of sacred spawnings. WS4 could be one of those spawning options
http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/lizzardhammer.16579/page-2#post-135019 You and @hdctambien are on the same page.
There are two problems with this apart from the characters issue: those two (or 3?) spells are only available to some armies they are an all-or-nothing form of crowd control -- the game should not hinge on one dice roll...
I do think cannons are too precise, but I agree with Scalenex, changing too much might not be the best way to start off. The easiest way to fix it would probably be to raise the points for cannons and lower the points for monsters (because I think most monsters aren't worth their points, like the giant for example, he is utterly marlecht for his point cost )
I guess that's true. I guess I just like the customization aspect of it (perhaps I'm spoiled with my WoC marks). That could work! Lowering the costs of monsters would have to be done very carefully. Many armies don't have access to cannons, so we can't reduce the cost of monsters in response to the effectiveness of cannons. However, I do agree with you that there are a fair number of monsters out there that deserve to have a reduction in points... giants, troglodon, slaughterbrute, beastmen monsters, etc.
I liked the general approach the SwedComp group had suggested: WHF8.1 no points adjustments, WHF8.2 introduction of points adjustments,... and so on. A careful approach might be to do point adjustments on an annual basis, (kinda the same timing that GW uses for price rises. ) But some kind of set schedule, maybe every six months. Method: use arbitrary bonus or penalty values as follows: + or minus 1 point on Infantry figures + or minus 2 points on cavalry figures + or minus 3 points on ogres and similar figures + or minus 20 points on giants and other huge figures Never bump anything up or down more than the standard increments during any one point adjustment cycle. Between adjustment cycles take input from players who get to make a simple overcosted or undercosted vote on each specific model. The point cost moves one increment in the appropriate direction each adjustment cycle. Eventually, the problem models will find their proper point cost when the community is evenly divided on over or under costed. Don't pay any attention to folks who are certain that more than the standard increment needs making all at once. They might well be right but use the entire playing community to get a consensus and close in on the correct value gradually. ________ LizardHammer Unrelated Note: I have added more choices (when I see somebody suggesting one) to the name poll and it was set so that you can vote for all the names that you find acceptable.
deathstars (or solo insane units like the deamon prince)/ op magic/ miscasts are like a paper/scisors/rock system, every one of them has a possible counter to it.... so this means IMO that changing one of them means u have to change the others or the balance (however realtive it is) will be broken... i like the idea of limiting terrible miscasts to high dicicng spells, I lost a couple of games by gething the dimensional cascade from 2 dice signature spells, whic can really ruin a game....
@hdctambien had lot of good ideas, I'll give some of my opinions: This is tough, since armies have such different capabilities and strengths. I think we could move away from any kind of Herohammer. Make characters tough, but in no way unkillable. Age of Sigmar is a bit mixed pack with this: on one hand, it greatly emphasized the role of heroes, but on the other hand, they have lots of wounds, but can be brought down with sufficient force. I do like this. Look out sir saves would make the characters too survivable and penalize the monster riding characters even more. I think only a handful of monsters are worth it to take for a character, and those are the ones we see the most on the table. Balancing the characters would help other monsters to see the battle, as well. This is brilliant! I wish you had made this into another post, so I could have liked it separately! This is also quite simple but very valid point. In 40k, the characters in challenge are no longer "immune" to attacks coming from outside the challenge. If the troops have no one else to fight (a Daemon Prince attacking a Necron Overlord with his group of Warriors, for example), the troops can also attack the single assailant (or maybe they can attack it anyway, even if there are other targets. I'm not completely sure). Would this work in Fantasy? I like the lone challenger who wins the challenge being stubborn or even unbreakable. If combined with the 40k ruling above, the character can still be killed by overwhelming force, but it won't just break because the Skeletons have more ranks... At first I liked the idea of having just one magic item per character, but then I started thinking how unbalanced some armies are with regards to the mundane equipment/other perks. For example, Tomb Kings characters are usually more supporting ones than super-killy. They have no access to Heavy Armor, other than BRB items. They are also one of the few models in the whole game who are extra susceptible to fire (taking two wounds for each unsaved flaming wound), so the 2+ Ward against flaming attacks is a must. My point is, if the amount of magic items would be so severely restricted, more care should be put to balancing the characters across the armies. This sounds good to me. It can still be the monster/super character killer/wounder, but don't just mow everything in it's path. Or maybe change it so that it does d3 wounds after the bounce. This way it would still be useful against Monstrous Cavalry, that are quite problematic in some armies. I also like @GreenMachine's suggestion about capping the Ward saves to 4+. The armies that can get a better save than that are so few (Sorry, NIGHTBRINGER), and as you can see from this whole post, I'm an advocate of Character Enfeebling Movement.
Make Slann at least as good as elves at casting High magic. What did GW think when they made the masters of High magic worse at casting it than the pupils
I believe something like this: "Herpdie -derp. ... we like Elves and chaos. What else can we give Elves and or slash chaos, that increase their (un)fairness? " well how about more potent magic for the Elves! Derp derp. ...now to make age og sigma! It will be the best!" I'm farly certain I'm not far off
Here is a proposed 8.1 modication set for Lizardmen and Empire, the two armies I know best. Note I know enough about finance that people are more likely to buy a bond sold at a discount than a premium even if they have the same rate of return. That means it's easier to sell people on making things cheaper than raising the points cost. Unless it's Lizardmen. To get people on other forums to except a L-O sponsored list, we need to be fairly tough on our own. That's why I didn't lower the points cost of Saurus Warriors, Cold One Riders, Carnosaurs, or Chameleon Skinks. For a similar reason, since cannons are getting the most significant points increases across all armies, armies with cannons need to get more points reductions on the rest of their army. Otherwise Empire, Dwarf, Ogre, and Daemon players will not buy what we are selling. Lizardmen Predatory Fighter applies to supporting attacks. Magic Items Reduce cost of Horn of Kygor by 10 points. Reduce the cost of the Jaguar Standard by 15 points Make it clear that the Sacred Stegadon Helm of Itza and Piranha Blade stack I’m not going to tackle Special Characters just yet Slann Mage Priests Add Focused Ferocity: Predatory Fighter units joined by a Slann may always test to restrain pursuit as if the Slann were a Skink character. This does not apply to other units within six inches of the Slann. If a Slann gains Fear or Terror, the Slann’s unit is considered to possess Fear or Terror. (Slann special characters get this too.) Note this will make Harrowing Scrutiny reasonable Raise cost of Becalming Cognition by 5 points Reduce Cost of Transcendent Healing by 5 points Saurus Oldblood Reduce cost of spear to 3 points. Saurus Scar Veteran Reduce cost of spear by 2 points Skink Chief Add Beast Kinship: A Skink Chief mounted on a Terradon may join a unit of Terradon riders. A Skink Chief mounted on a Ripperdactyl may join a unit of Ripperdactyl riders. Mounted Skink Chiefs may not join any other unit. Saurus Warriors Add “one unit of Saurus Warriors per army may take a magic standard worth up to 25 points). Skink Cohort Unchanged. Skink Skirmishers Raise cost of taking Javelins and shields from free to 1 point per model. Temple Guard Unchanged Jungle Swarms Reduce cost by 5 points per model Chameleon Skinks Unchanged Cold One Riders Reduce costs of Spear upgrade by 2 points per model Add may take a Magic Banner worth up to 50 points Kroxigor Unchanged Terradon Riders Make optional swap to Fireleech bolas free Stegadon Unchanged Bastiladon Increase costs of Solar Engine by 15 points. Ancient Stegadon, Salamander Hunting Pack, Razordon Hunting Pack Unchanged Troglodon Reduce cost by 20 points Empire I’m not going to tackle Special characters just yet Reduce cost of Griffon Banner by 10 points Reduce cost of Mace of Helsturm by 5 points Reduce cost of the White Cloak of Ulric by 5 points Reduce cost of Ring of Volans by 5 points General of the Empire Reduce cost by 5 points All other Lords Unchanged Master Engineer Half the cost of all weapon upgrades (since they can’t be used while aiding a warmachine). Reduce cost of mechanical horse by 5 points All other Heroes Unchanged Halbrediers Shield upgrades reduced to 0.5 points per model Spearmen Shield upgrades reduced to 0.5 points per model Swordsmen Cost reduced by 0.5 per model Crosswbowmen Cost reduced by 1 point per model Hangunners Cost reduced by 1 point per model Archers Unchanged Free Company Militia Cost reduced by 0.5 per model Knightly Orders Unchanged Great Swords Unchanged Demigryph Knights Increase cost by 7 points per model Reiksguard Knights Unchanged Huntsmen Reduce cost by 0.5 points per model Pistoliers Reduce cost by 2 point per model Outriders Reduce cost by 1 point per model Great Cannon Raise cost by 25 points per model Mortar Reduce cost by 5 points per model Flagellants Reduce cost by 1 point per model Hellblaster Volley Gun Unchanged Helstrom Rocket Battery Reduce cost by 15 points Steam Tank Raise cost by 25 points Celestial Hurricanum Unchanged Luminark Reduce cost by 5 points
It seems very reasonable that we wouldn't get so much of a decrease in points, since we might gain a little more than usual from the added cost to all cannons. Of course other armies that share same benefit, should also only decrease slightly, in order of making these points fair; this is of course an issue best taken along side all the other inputs, from other armies.
My comments are written in red in your quote. They're just suggestions. Add: Razordons: Armour piercing (1). Chakax: Increase scaly skink to 4+. Change 5+ ward to work at all time and not just in challenge. Reduce price with 50-70pts (he's currently 270pts for a unit that's solely base on challenges and gives unbreakable to a unit that's already "unbreakable". Kroq-gar: Change Hand of Gods. We don't need another Shem's Burnings Gaze. Maybe grant ASF? Increase Grymloqs attack from 5 to 6 OR add frenzy after first wound done by Grymloq like normal carnosaurs so it have 5 attacks + frenzy. Kroq-gar is a very expensive character and needs something done. Overall I agree with what you've changed. They're small changes and for the most part good
Maybe make the spell in the Hand of Gods banishment instead, and make it an innate bound spell (would be wierd if the Hand of the Gods broke) Maybe give him back the rule where he could take Cold one riders as Core. Give Grymloq Bloodroar. He would probably need a little point increase though.
I definitely agree with the COR magic banner thing. In fact I intended to put that in, the omission was a typo. I'll mull over the other suggestions. I think Special characters should be done last. By which I mean when EVERY army gets their basic stuff modified, then we tackle all the Special characters as one. Special characters are polarizing. It's not worth getting potential "buyers" of a L-O sponsored list bent out of shape because of something a special character can or cannot do. I agree in general that Special Characters should get the lion share of non-points based changes. I would boost the reduction in Troglodons to 25 points, but I don't think anything should change by more than 25 points (except for Skull Cannons of Khorne), I'd say 50 point cost increase would be conservative.
I can agree to this, although I'd still like frenzy on grymloq haha. Bloodroar would just be more of what we can already get. There's hardly anything special about grymloq, other than a ward.