Hi all. I know this really isn't relevant to people that aren't playing 8th, but for those who do, what do you think to the internal balance of the 8th edition book? I had an 8th game yesterday and my friend commented on how I use very similar things over and over and that I should try new things. As I am a semi-competitive player, I play moderately competitive lists, with a couple of less competitive units for fun. However, it did turn into quite a discussion with me reaching the conclusion that our internal balance isn't very good. I find our named characters (excluding Tetto & Kroak) to be quite sub-par. Half our Rare is also sub-optimal, and I find our Special is a bit hit and miss too. A lot of people also aren't fans of Saurus and would prefer just Skinks for Core. Tl:dr What's your opinion on the internal balance of the 8th edition Lizardmen book?
I actually think that our internal (im)balance is not that bad. Yes there are some obvious stronger choices than others and some weaker (troglodon). But even then you are able to field almost anything on the table and have a good chance of winning. Ofcourse you need to be more skilled and the units need to support more each other. But compared to some other armies I really do think that our book is rather well balanced and rounded. I own beastmen and dark elves also myself. They both have some units that you would almost never consider to field when compared to other choices. For example the core section of DE. Why would you ever take spears or hw+sh over dark riders and witch elves in core? You wouldn't. And we all know the beastmen rare section.... BR Agrem
I think only Lord Mazdamundi, Oxyotl and the Troglodon aren't worth their points (but I love the model of the Troglodon so I use it in every battle ) but besides them we have a very well balanced army! Our Skinks are very good archers (or better blowpipers...) even if they have a short range. They are good in killing monsters with their poison attacks and they often annoy our enemy with their skirmisher rule.Kroxigors can also help them killing monsters or form a powerful closecombat unit with them. Our salamanders can kill whole units with their breathattack while our monsters have a good armour save and make a lot of damage. Slanns are powerful mages and Scar Veterans/Oldbloods are very powerful in closecombat and I think that we have one of the most powerful closecombat units in our core choices for little points:Saurus Warriors. If you compare our army with other armys (for example: Woodelves which have much more archers than any other army but also not many good closecombat units. Or Vampire Counts which are a whole closecombat army) you will see that we have one of the most balanced armys in Warhammer. -Lord_Itzi-Bitzi
@Lord_Itzi-Bitzi What about Chakax and Tiktaqto? Jungle Swarms, Razordons, and, at a push, Stegadons (Not Ancients)? I see all of them excluding the Stegadon to be sub-par, with the Stegadon losing out because an Ancient is much better for a slight points increase. I agree we have some powerful units, but there are a fair few weak ones as well.
Chakax and Tiktaqto are horrible for their points costs. Razordons are decent but definitely not great. Swarms need points reduction.
This is my point. All the while, we have much better characters, Special and Rare units. What's your take on the Internal balance of the book, @NIGHTBRINGER?
Jungle Swarms, Razordons, and regular stegadons are all quite useable, as are our Saurus based units, these units generally work best when pared with a support unit to offset their weaknesses.
My opinion on Lizardmen AB: Kroq-Gar: Carnosaurs are just not that good. Lord Mazdamundi: You want him inside a Temple Guard unit not on a worse stegadon. Costs a billion points. Wierd magic items. Not worth going there for the loremaster. Just take a slann or kroak. Lord Kroak: Great, -1 hit is great, the spell does crazy damage, unbreakable. Great character, just misses good buff spells. Take a slann or tetto'eko with him for total magic domination. Also he is pretty much impossible to kill. oldblood: Not as cost effective as the scar-vet but still a great character, can be built into one of the strongest combat lords in the game. Slann: Great mage with loads of options. Tehenhuain: Quite expensive, would rather take a slann with lore of beasts. Swarms kinda suck. Chakax: Would be alright if he didnt cost so damn much. If you want unbreakable get lord kroak. Gor-Rok: Scar-vets are just better. Oxyotl: Chameleon skinks are just better. Scar-vets: Just amazing on a coldone, +3 save without even adding Items, just great. There are many viable builds. Skink Chiefs: Good with flying mount, otherwise kinda meh. Skink Priest: Alright lower level mage. Arcane vassal is amazing, making them a must in pretty much every army. The flying cloak is great with kroak. Usually they are the scroll caddy. Tetto'eko: Great magic support hero, can cast great comets, vanguard is amazing. Well worth the points, good with kroak. Tiktaq'to: Kinda expensive, compared to a normal flying skink chief. Bad defense. Saurus Warriors: Alright, but skinks are just much better and fit the typical "competitive" playstyle more. Skink Cohorts: Great chaff aswell, better at double fleeing because they can have a musician. Skink Skirmishers: Great chaff kroxigor: Scar-vets do their job better, they also cost alot and die in droves (bad ws, ASL) but they hit hard. Just an awkward unit in general. Bastildon: Solar engine is good, great magic missile if you have a spare power dice. Can really deal some damage. He doesnt cost that much either. Ark of sotek is just...ugh. Cold One Riders: Not that good alone, only good as bunker for heroes. Rippers: Tricky to make them work, they hit hard as hell tho when you get them into a toaded unit. Can be worth it. Stegadon: Just get an ancient one if you want a steg. Jungle swarms: Just not worth it imo. The poison isnt that big, they might also just die before they actually allow for an example saurus warriors to hit. Temple Guard: Great bunker, nice save against shooting. Pretty medicore stats, with buffs they can do some damage. Good to have some Magic Resist so the enemy doesnt shot it down since if TG die, the slann dies (generally). Terradon: Great flying redirectors and warmachine hunters. Ancient Stegadon: Good monster, d6+1 str 6 impact hits with d3 wounds is great. But with 6 move, only +3 armor save, cannon magnet its generally free points for the enemy. Blowpipes blow (heh), engine of the gods is just meh. Salamander: Good, you dont have to take many, 1 or 2 units of one are enough. Can deal some real damage. Razordon: Average shooting, but high magic can make them very dangerous. Can be worth taking. Troglodon doesnt exist, rather take a carno.
In comparison to many other Army Books out there, I feel our internal balance (outside some of our special characters + Trog) is actually pretty good. It is no where near perfect but I feel it would only take a very small tweak to level things out. I can't think of a single army book with anywhere near perfect internal balance, so I'd say we're not too bad.
A lot of the units you say are bad, (Cold on cav, Swarms, Kroxigor, Carnasaurs) are meant to be flanking units. and that means that they are already engaged with a main unit, usually in the front. Ps. Gor-Rok is better than you think, just bunker him in some Saurus.
Agreed, he has always done the job for me, almost literally being as the book portrays him, something like the rock upon which Itza's enemies are broken. Depending on what he is up against of course.
I do like Gor-Rok, ans run him regularly with him in a block of Saurus. However, I'd say he's average. He does have good tougness and armour and can lay the beat on lightly armoured units, but I don't fancy his chance against any combat-oriented characters. I'm not a massive fan of his Resilience rule either, would much prefer an extra wound or something on his profile. I still don't think the book has good internal balance though. Whilst no book has perfect or near perfect balance, I would say there are a few army books (High Elves, VC and TK to name a few) that do have fairly good internal balance in regards to their unit choices. Thanks to everyone for their comments. I think it's nice to have a discussion like this.