Hey guys! I recently started a Seraphon army for AoS and have been playing around with what I want to run. Unlike Ogres, you can summon so many units! I dont mind making this a cheesy army, however, certain hero I do not want to run more then one of. Such as Lord Kroak and Tetto'eko. Not 100% sure what my starting list will have in it besides Lord kroak, a Engine of the Gods, a unit of temple guard, a carnosaur maybe and a unit of those terradon things lol. I also may buy some Chameleon skinks, the ability to pop up anywhere on the board during the hero phase sounds awesome..... taking out the backline heros a lot easier. Anyways this is what I thought of during the start of my hero phase: Lord Kroak (5 casts) > casts a Saurus with Astrolith banner, then the Saurus plants the banner for +1 to cast > Lord Kroak (4 casts) cast a Tetto, having a +1 to casting > Tetto (1 cast) casts another Saurus with Astrolith banner, then the Saurus plants the banner for another +1> Lord Kroak (3 casts) casts a Skink Starpriest with +2 for casting.... not sure what else I would like to cast. First I'd like to say how crazy cheesy this would be lol.. and second is this restricted? I am not sure if once you start casting spells with Lord Kroak you have to finish all his 5 casts before moving on to someone else or not. Please let me know! Cannot wait to play this army.. sounds way to much fun with all these summoning abilities, but they also seem to be a bit OP.
Not sure you can do 100% of that in one turn..? (Saurus plants the banners on their turns ?) and cast are not guaranteed to succeeded.
I know its not guaranteed to succed ;p. Saurus plant banners during the hero phase. Is it possible to cast one spell with Lord Kroak then move to someone else and cast a spell with them, then move back to Lord Kroak?
First quick note, Kroak has four casts per turn, not five. Second note, the chameleons appear during the Movement phase, not the Hero phase. Thirdly, Tetto can't summon, only Slann can summon. And as Slann are the only units that can't be summoned in the Seraphon army, that makes them any good player's primary target so you need to put a lot of effort into protecting them. And finally, that's honestly a really weak set-up you have there. I mean come on, just one unit of infantry, no dedicated support, a misuse of the Hero roles, an over-reliance on summoning, and no synergy between your units? I have non-competitive fluff armies that are more balanced and powerful than that, let alone my actual competitive armies. That's not a cheese army, that's a punching-bag for actual well-developed armies. To make yourself a balanced list, you need to keep the following things in mind. #1: Infantry, use it. One unit is not enough even in the smallest games, not only do multiple units allow you to cover more ground and give your army a much-needed bonus to its ability to adapt to unexpected developments, but if you spend all of your time on heroes then your army will have no staying power as if you have an army of heroes against an army of infantry, the heroes will get obliterated due to sheer numbers. Even the mightiest of warlords can't stand up to entire armies without an army of their own, and a group of their individually powerful buddies does not class as an army. Furthermore with no infantry you have absolutely nothing stopping your enemy from sending a sniper or assassin to one-shot Kroak on the first turn and cut your most powerful hero off potentially before you even get the chance to use it, only beginner players at my Workshop wouldn't be able to do that to your army and even the beginners would probably do it at about Turn 2 instead. #2: Stat lines are not representative of a unit's value. You seem to be falling into the unfortunately all too common misconception that too many influential and normal people fall into, which is to think "well why would I take a normal Slann and Saurus Warriors when I can take Kroak and Temple Guard instead?" The answer is pretty simple, it's because they all specialise at different things. If you took Temple Guard and Kroak in a defensive army then you're going to have one of the best defensive builds in the game, but if you try to take them for an offensive army then you're going to get wiped the hell out by an identical army that just uses Warriors and a normal Slann instead, because the Warriors and Slann are more optimised for aggressive play than Kroak and Temple Guard are. I know this because, after coming up with the theory behind it, I tested it and the difference between how well the two armies performed on the offensive was staggering, the Guard were sub-par at best when against a solid opponent while the Warriors dominated. And this is true of literally every unit in every army, there is not a unit in the entire game that does not have a place in competitive play, I've checked. So when deciding which units to take, don't look at the statlines as they are, look at what you can do with the units as a whole in relation to the other units you can take for an optimal build for the strategy that you have in mind. Which brings us nicely to.... #3: Synergy>stats. The entire game right now is dominated by synergy because no matter how powerful a model or unit is, it's going to be weaker than a series of lesser-stat units working together. This is why Heroes are much weaker in combat now, they're support units dedicated to leading your army rather than soloing entire hordes. Y'know, like generals should. For example, if you send the army you've got outlined now against my army of Warriors who are all being buffed twice by a normal Slann, once by a Sunblood, twice by a Starpriest, and once more by a Starseer, not to mention the handy-dandy Horde Bonus that nets more attacks and better Hit rolls, guess who's going to win that fight. I'll give you a hint, it's not the Guard with the more powerful statline. Instead of focusing on what unit is the most powerful, focus on what units work the best together to give the best united effect. You're sort-of onto this with your use of the Astriloth Bearer, but really that's bare-bones. The only army that is exempt from this rule of Synergy over Stats, and I do mean the only army, are the Stormcast Eternals because they've clearly been specifically designed this way to serve as an "easy to learn, hard to master" army that can help beginners such as yourself ease into the game without having to focus on all this imposing Synergy. If you can't get your head around this rule, which is honestly the most important rule even if the others aren't far behind, then I advise that you drop the Seraphon and start a Stormcast army because they're much more in-line with your current way of thinking. #4: Heroes are support. I know I touched on this before, but it deserves a rule of its own. Heroes aren't super-killy mass murderers as they used to be, they're much squishier, can't join units for protection, and don't deal a great amount of damage compared to basic infantry. This is traded for a whole host of really badass support abilities, if you go and check now you'll find that every single one of our heroes has a powerful support ability that will either allow you to synergise with other heroes for a boosted overall effect, debuffing your enemies, or just generally making your all-so-important infantry more powerful. There are some heroes that are killy, namely all the dudes on big monsters such as Carnosaurs, but even they tend to be very squishy if the enemy out-maneuvers you and traps them so you really need to be careful with them. The monster-heroes are like your Queen in chess. Super-powerful and capable of mass destruction, but it'll go down in one hit if your enemy traps it. Especially if your enemy has a Monster Hunter, then your arse is grass. As Seraphon players, we're uniquely blessed. Of all the armies in the game, we're pretty much the only one who can make use of any tactical archetype you can think of. We've got great cavalry and light troops for both offensive and defensive Fluid armies, we have the ability to rail off quite powerful Mortal Wounds to act as Line-Breakers to pierce high-armour defensive lines which is honestly an uncommon ability that only a small number of armies have, we have arguably the best defensive units in the game in the form of Temple Guard and while we lack War Machines, Kroak is like a living (dead?) Dwarf Cannon with a tonne of powerful offensive abilities to allow you to bully your enemy into brashly charging you before they're ready, and our Warriors, Sunbloods, and Slann allow for some really effective horde tactics to overwhelm your enemy with so many respawning troops that your opponent will think that the Skaven have turned into reptiles when they weren't looking. But all of these powerful tactics, or to use your term "all this cheese," requires far more than just a cursary glance at the stats. Age of Sigmar has solved the problem of only some armies being competitive, there are no real tiers now, and the game naturally rewards tactical brilliance over whichever army has the bigger stick. So if you really want that cheese you're looking for, you'll need to really think hard about not just what you're going to use, but how you're going to use it. Of course, if you decide you want help with this, you need only ask.
Well said, Bainbow. To the OP, all of your summoning would be better spent putting buffs on infantry blobs. Remember that if you only field 5 models, and then summon 20, your opponent still only has to kill 5 models to cause 100% casualties to your army. People tend to forget this when they whine about summoning being broken. Also, without an Eternity Warden, you risk Kroak being shot off the table with a bad bravery roll.
Ummm i appreciate the bashing guys.. but as noted I said I was starting to develop an army... all I have literally bought so far has been a lord kroak, the thunderbeast host set, tetto, a unit of kroxigor and a unit of temple guard... if you want to give advise thats fine and appreciated. but if you want to bash my army list once I have one together, then wait until i put it into the army list thread....
I don't think they are bashing you, I read it from a point of if you fielded the army what your opponent would do to you. I'm just like you new to AOS and what I have learn't is start small and introduce units slowly once you know your play style, your army is defensive but does that suit how you play, baiting your opponent into attacking or do you want to go charging in?
Not bashing you, lad, but sugarcoating it wasn't going to do anything. As I said, we're here to help if you want it. And everything I said, particularly the four rules I gave, are guidelines on how to design your army. If you have Kroak and some Guard, I'd definitely advise you to go for a defensive army. High armour, plenty of rerolls, a very tight formation to prevent attacks on Kroak, and an Eternity Warden. Grabbing the Eternal Starhost will increase your armour even more and solve that single-unit problem, plus it will give you severe hitting power when somebody charges you. Just keep your Warden within 5" of every TG unit all the time, that's important to keep your buffs up. Don't focus on summoning with Kroak. Do it when you need to bring your numbers back up, but your focus should be on his unique spells. Kroak can unload Mortal Wounds with every one of his four spells and doesn't need line of sight to do it, making him very destructive. Comet's Call can be used to wound the enemy general straight away with its global range, and a triple-casting of Celestial Deliverance can really bring the pain when your opponent moves in for the kill. Oh and don't forget that bonus to spell range you get from the Astriloth, that makes Deliverance go from decent to particularly powerful. Lastly if you've not built your Thunderbeast Starhost yet, I'd go for an Engine of the Gods rather than a Troglodon as the battalion leader, the Engine is much more supportive, excelling in support fire with Mortal Wound sniping, summoning reinforcements so Kroak can focus on DPS, and the rare Time Stop can really allow you to mess up somebody's day. The Troglodon tends to be more aggressive with its speed and Arcane Vassal. Oh and throwing Tet's Curse of Fates onto the Engine allows for significantly more control over its rolls, particularly when combined with the bonus dice from Kroak and the rerolls from both. Oh, and the Bastiladon is your friend. Love the Bastiladon. Field the Bastiladon. Give the Bastiladon a 2+ save with Mystic Shield and rerolls To Save and regeneration with the Thunderbeast Starhost and it'll never, ever die. Also give it a Solar Engine for the laser because that hits hard, particularly with the Astriloth Bearer and some rerolls from Kroak/Tet for the times you roll low with the 2D6 shots. Plus if you've got rerolls to Save from the Battalion, you've also got rerolls To Wound, so with the Astriloth too you have rerolls to Hit and Wound together. Boom. Also this is sound advice.
In the rulebook (or packet lol) it says for a minor victory you can compare percentages and whoever took out the higher percentage could claim the victory, but models that are summoned, etc, dont count towards this percentage. I am not new to AoS just to Lizardmen. I currently play an Ogres and Wood Elves army. Whether or not he was bashing I dont really care, its expected on forums, the persons seems knowledge but at the same time having a cockiness to their to which leads me not wanting to converse with them no matter how knowledgeable they are. As I said I wasn't showing off a finished army list, just trying to get some mechanics down. I've played magic the gathering for quite some time and have to deal enough with cocky players playing that lol.
Ill take your advise, if you werent trying to be cocky thats cool, lots of things get misinterpreted through text and I apologize. Ill need to do more research.
Hey no worries over it, lad. I was just writing up a quick comment apologising if I came off like that, actually.
I am actually quite disappointed not to be honest... my friends and I usually just play a certain amount of rounds and see who can achieve a major victory or play some kind of sudden death game. My plan was to keep Kroak in the back with multiple defensive units (not decided which), then summon a fews units as mid defense, and have multiple units of Temple Guard paired with Eternity Wardens, a couple of units of Kroxigor and a carnosaur up front tearing apart they enemy line, which animating the chameleons in the back lines taking out the heros. Also please let me know if I should invest in chameleons or are they a bad idead... $25 for 5 fro GW isnt exactly cheap... I was thinking about running 10.
Honestly I think you only need the one Eternity Warden. Only one can be a part of the Eternal Starhost, and you only need one anyway. Your Carnosaur shouldn't be up front, it'll get crushed. It should be on the flank, hitting from the side and covering your own flank. Oh, and make sure to have the Carnosaur attack monsters rather than infantry, the Carnosaur is made to kill monsters. And chameleons are actually great ranged support and assassins in any army, so go for them.
Chameleons are good just make sure you don't get them in combat, have you thought about Ripperdacyls?
I was going to make an Engine of the gods actually.. im confused though... these are seperate units. The Troglodon is part of the carnosaur kit and the Engine of the gods is part of the Egine/Stegadon kit (and you get to of these) I was going to make one of each and then one of the Carnosaurs not sure which one yet, but probably the more aggressive one to have a little more offense. The bastiladon is definitely on my wish list, just waiting to see if the company i buy my stuff from runs them on sale. Or I find them NIB on ebay for cheap. So far I have gotten very lucky. Beast host - $158 Tetto - $30 Skink Priest (finecast NIB) $10 Teraddon riders nib - $30 Temple Guard I think were $38.. seeing what else I can dig up
Well, actually it says that they don't count towards the size of the army... And then: "must be counted among the casualties an army suffers." Double checked English and German version... To me it seems like if you start with 10 models each and you summon 10 during the game and at the end of the game your opponent lost nine models and you lost 15, he would win the game cause 90% is less than 150%... Though you have 5 left and he only one. So to me summoning is cool, as long as these guys don't die... Oh! And I also recommend the rippers!