Here it is guys, the official BETA http://www.the-ninth-age.com/pdf/the-ninth-age_Saurian_Ancients_0-99-0.pdf I would like for everyone who likes it to give me an idea of your initial impression. What sucks, what dont and what is good. After that we will compare with actual playtesting
For anyone interested, here is the release notes http://www.the-ninth-age.com/news/index.php?news/248-announcement-of-the-9th-age-0-99-release/&
I am just going to let it sink in for now. As a general note: I am not impressed. A lot of nerfs that make no sense at all to me.
Yes... I'm going to let this fester, I mean sink in for now [after a short rant of course] And now for that previously mentioned rant... Almost everything! I didn't waste any money on this On a more serious note, what really bugs me the most is the removal of options, such as... no more core skink hunters Caiman Ancient can't be a BSB anymore Taurosaur Helm can only be taken by a model on foot (impact hits for a model on foot is very unimpressive) Discipline selection and content Skink priests can no longer ride a Pteradon same is true for the Warriors of the Dark Gods, seems like everything introduced is inhibitory in nature... I get the general sense that I have less choice, less freedom and less creativity On a side note... why is my beloved Hellcannon no longer unbreakable? 6th edition = unbreakable, 7th edition = unbreakable, 8th = unbreakable, earlier 9th Age versions = unbreakable, 0.99 version = daemonic instability + stubborn Some good things at first glance (and I hate to sully my good rant with this ) Baby Carno for a Saurian Warlord!! Thryoscutus Altar of the Snake-God increased in points. This was deserved (in my opinion it is better than the Sun Engine). Mixoatl standard still seems very good New sharp horns seems like fun in general some of the point increases were very much deserved (but not on the Temple Guard... those guys are a joke now, they cost more than Chaos Chosen )
I agree on most if not all of what you just said Nightbringer. They do not when you count in the halbard or shield
Ill post a bit later with more thoughts. It is nice to see some point reductions scattered around, especially Raptor Riders. I really dislike the changes to sallies/razordons. Not for the power level, but for the ham-fisted way it seems to have been done. Why did we lose venom? I thought that was a really cool and fluffy thing to have. Also "Weapon Beasts", everything else has cool unit entry names, this one sucks. It now seems that "hatred" is a thing for us (The styi seems ok now). But the skink palaquin only giving the bonus to skinks is not worth 30pts imo. I think that needs to be looked at. More later, back to work.
I'm curious how many people will play a Taurosaur. They did some awkward things to it. It still has a -2 to cast buff. For Skinks only however. This combined with a nerf to the Slanns abilities and price increase of the TG. I think people will just run a Skink High Priest and an Engine. It will not be seen in a list with a Slann. The ranged attack is still horribly bad. The 5+ ward against ranged aura isn't that bad, but its a real step down from the range. I can imagine it being deemed too strong though. An effective 24 inch bubble was powerful. It is a big shame that it lost the 6+ general ward though. I am torn about it. I want to play it, but do I want to spend nearly 300 points that won't have that much of an effect? Its not horribly bad, its just not that good for its points aswell..
First off, a shield is a pretty wasteful investment when you are forced to use your halberd; the ranged protection that it offers just isn't worth it. So with a halberd they are pretty much on par with each other points-wise. At that point (even considering cold-blooded and bodyguard) the Chosen's WS6 and I5 starts to look mighty good. On top of that the chosen have far better options for customization. Agreed, that is completely useless. This version seems to be very anti-Slann. I'm not sure why they are so much against our Slann in what is already a diminished magic environment. I miss that too.
So looking at some things in the book. There really is something wrong about it. A lot of the changes are just so.. Its like someone only looked to the "nerf SA please" threads and ignored all the SA player feedback.They make no sense at all. Also something that will definitely be nerfed in the future: Skink High Priest with Book of Arcane Power combined with a Godly Engine, Lore of Light and a big unit of Caimen with Halberds. +5 Cast GG WP.
Overall I think the changes are very odd. Points going up or down is not that wierd, however it is wierd given the units that recieved a price increase, some of them anyway. The rule changes and units moving around is hard to swallow, and mostly I don't like it one bit. A perfect system cannot be achieved, not in nature, so why anywhere else. Why not just give us the army we want, (while still being fair of course) sticking to the theme (Hatred is kinda wierd with Lizardmen/Saurian Ancients I think) and adjust points accordingly. More options/costumization for good diversity, should result in more viable builds. Making the game more enjoyable in the long run, and making sure it's not the same list winning over and over again. And no it would not neccesarily make the game more unbalanced, but it will probably take longer to make, because more time is needed to make it all work nicely. Still, I like 9th age, and I think it has strengths, but at the moment, there has been added to the weaknesses.
I have to agrre that the poor old slann is becoming the old grandfather that just sits at the table and watches the kids play now. I am really enjoying running a High Skinky and Old Blood.
Trying to reign in rage quitting... Chosen being the same points as our core saurian warriors, feral eadbashers being much cheaper and still much better, dwarven hold guardians being monstrous infantry with that taboo T5 (What made caimans too strong) along with MW D3 and still cheaper than we were. Just some highlights from skimming other books, there is quite a lot more that can be said, but I would move into a very long rant. The end result of said rant is that there is still a massive bias going on and I'm honestly very tired of it. I strongly disagree with the massive point tax on our warriors and guards, I think that moves our army decidedly towards a guerrilla MSU shooting army. Just be sort of realistic with expectations, skinks are WS2 T2 models, they are not going to be the core combat blocks for lizardmen armies. When they combine poison shots, along with poison close combat you get a versatile unit that doesn't over perform in any one area but fills a solid spot in multiple phases, remove the shooting and give a crappy buff to the combat and you are left with a very poor unit. We are already one of the lowest WS armies out there, along with a very low I for half our army if not more, we do not have better armor than average, and are not considered a very fast army either. The only thing I think we can be considered top tier in is magic and that is taking a nerf across the board, it is also not a game winning phase due to the random nature and easy defense against it. Here are a few items that I believe will need to be addressed in version 1.0 1) Saurian Warriors should start at 9 pts each for up to a total unit size of 40, spears should be 1 pt each. 2) Skink Braves without poison shooting need to start at absolutely no more than 4 pts each 3) Temple Guards start at 12 pts each, options to upgrade to totems, heavy armor, GWs, and shields (please don't make me pay for shields I can't even use now). These guys are elite and should be treated at least half way as much as chosen are now. 4) Raptor Riders still are over costed at 35 pts compared to chaos knights at 32 pts, reduce them to 30 pts and give them the option for light armor at 8 pts so they can actually become elite calvary like other armies. Otherwise too many die due to low I before being able to hit. 5) Caimans should be reduced to no more than 40 pts or given hardened scales back 6) Thyroscutus should be either S5 or T6, right now it is a great buff wagon but a little crappy anywhere that is not behind the lines, it is still a monster. 7) Taurosaur is over costed compared to quite a few different monsters, and without upgrades it really just stinks at 200 pts. Make some of the upgrades its base or reduce points. 8) Give BP back to the carnosaurs, but keep the lower WS on the alpha and no MW on the normal one. 9) Re-work the magic items, the sword still sucks, the helm and the black cube won't be used anymore, the remaining ones are all well thought out and balanced I wouldn't change skink hunters, sky riders, weapon beasts, thyroscutus special rules, warrior totems, or stygiosaur. Normally I would also inject some nerfs with those above items, but honestly we were pounded with them all over already, every area I would have nerfed was already done, and in some cases overdone. What we really need as an army is the option to actually play the way Pinktaco wrote in the sneak peek, we need to be able to rely less on shooting MSU and more on combat, but still have shooting MSU support (Just not needed for competitive play). Here are some of my expectations for version 0.99 playtesting feedback 1) GWs will not be seen 2) Saurian characters will once again be the only solid close combat solution 3) You will see less warrior units now than in 8th edition 4) Weapon Beasts will be in almost every list and maxed out at 4 models 5) Alpha Carnosaur will no longer be fielded in favor of multiple regular carnosaurs But enough on the negative, how about things I like. 1) Casting spells through skinks reduces the range by half, good mechanic but still allows for freedom of play 2) I like moving weapon beasts into one unit and in rare, 4 of them is plenty and our rare choices are slim as is 3) Sharp Horns change seems really fun, I don't think MW D3 was an issue but I like this change quite a bit 4) Removing MW D3 from baby carno, especially with how often I think we are going to see them now that was just too hard to deal with for certain armies and builds.
As long as you agree that the Hellcannon losing its Unbreakable special rule is an unforgivable travesty. You're right, it seems that the nerfing was done indiscriminately. I fully admit that some things needed to be toned down, but I was expecting the changes to be done with surgical precision as opposed to carpet bombing the entire army book. It really bugs me to see our center-piece model/character being reduced to this. Personally I'm not a big fan of Skink High priests from a fluff perspective, so the attack on the Slann is twice as impactful.
As the last update before the big release one would expect that toning down and taking the edges off was needed. Now its more like they took a hammer to it.
The worst part is, the book would have been fine if they actually only tweaked it. If they had just taken the edge off, removed or nerfed the OP stuff and left the rest alone. It would have been a fine book. It only needed a couple of nerfs to be in a pretty good place.
I hadn't seen the Dwarven Hold Guardians... what are they supposed to be? Were they a creation of the 9th Age crew? Although they are a bit more expensive than the Caimans, they have some insane stats. Base strength 6, multiple wounds D3, magical attacks, toughness 5, WS4 and leadership 10!! The only saving grace is that they only have 2 attacks a piece. The fact that our Caimans lost their toughness 5 but these guys are exempt from this nerf really bugs me. I'm getting tired of 9th Age altogether... I miss GW (I admit it). Their only bias was to sell stuff... at least I could understand that.
Wow those DH Guardians. Sure they only have 2 attacks a piece. Which will multiply to an average of 4 against a multiwound model. That is painful. Very painful.
Agreed. Especially sitting behind that formidable defense and leadership 10. Do you know where those models originate from? They don't have an 8th edition equivalent, unless I am badly mistaken.
Nope, they are essentially a new unit. 8th edition Dwarves have no MI. And here we are with Carnosaurs, the ultimate predator, that has no MW left at all. Hell I don't want to put my Carnosaurs in combat with those things.
Initial Thoughts: Some nice ideas but let down by an overall poor execution and reduction in choices. It feels like this was rushed out without thinking about it, not that it's been a ton of work by a large number of people. The good: Points costs between the initial block and the extras have increased to the point that I think we'll start to see more MSU and possibly even more medium sized units. We're seeing increased choice through extra balance (since 8th edition) and some extra configuration options (e.g saurus totem animals) The bad Choices are being taken away from us massively with the latest update, no longer are most units configurable and we're being forced into standard choices. Clumsy munging together of completely different units is getting ridiculous now. Can we sort this out properly across all armies already??? The salamander and razorback are different units as are chameleons and hunters. The emphasis on tournament play over fun and ease of use of army books. With GW I survived only having an army book, now I feel like I need to study both the army book and the general rules to determine what actually does what, all for the sake of trying to balance things to minute detail (e.g. Carnosaur and Alpha Carnosaur having totally different rulesets) General feeling of being forced to play a certain way, instead of being encouraged to play a certain way and paying a little extra not to.