That seems to be universally agreed upon. Agreed, Kevin's reign is a hopeful one and is the greatest reason why I believe AoS will have a chance to flourish. I wish he was around during the days of 8th Edition; things may have turned out differently. One last (personal) plus for AoS: I'm saving a lot of money! While I'm not on a complete boycott of GW products (I have bought a few items for my 8th edition armies), my GW spending has been drastically curtailed. In fact, I haven't stepped into my local GW (which is only about 10 mins away walking, or 2 mins by car) in over a year. I also switched over to other companies for all my supplies (paints, flock, primer, etc).
While not directly mentioned in the AoS fluff, the End Times: Thanquol book explains how the slann escaped the destruction of the old world (aka the Age of Myth). Spoiler (page 172) The great pyramid-temples and stone ziggurats hovered for a moment, their true size revealed - for the majority of the vast structures had been hidden below the world's surface. Great clumps of earth fell from their underbellies. The roaring blast as they lifted off the ground flattened the surrounding jungle, sending onlookers scrambling for cover. Then, moving more quickly than any could have imagined, the stone monoliths flew up into the heavy clouds and were lost to sight. For the slann, it was time to return to the stars. Then you have page 10 of the Seraphon Battletome regarding how the great star drake Dracothion found the wandering Slann in the stars, and now I think you can understand where the criticism comes from and why it is justified. This is so true. I could not afford Warhammer as a kid, but when I noticed the End Times hype, I felt ready to start some armies and sunk a couple grand into the hobby during the Thanquol release. Then came the rumors that a new edition was imminent and that the Lizardmen range would be dropped (possibly due to the spoilers above), but given the long history of Warhammer Fantasy, I was convinced that the new edition would at least carry over the old framework like its predecessors did. Well, I sure was wrong in that regard, and together with the lack of media transparency from GW during this period, I cannot help but feel prejudiced with AoS from the get-go. But I decided to give it a shot anyway for the sake of fair criticism, which leads me to... A good number of us describe AoS as too simple, and I feel the same way. I do not own the General's Handbook, but from what I am seeing in the leaks, you have 6 different options per artifact/command trait per faction. Now compare that to the number of items available to an army in 8th from both the rulebook and army-specific rules, and you start to notice the ratio of options for 8th to AoS is something like 3:1 or 4:1. Similar argument for spell options; our heroes and wizards feel so generic now. 8th edition might have had complex rules and unbalanced armies, but part of the fun was unraveling that complexity, having a large number of options to choose from, and tailoring a custom army list. Agree with static hit/wound table and movement arguments from other posters above. On the plus side, I do like that charging comes after the movement phase in AoS. Yep. It reminds me of World of Warcraft with the whole bulky armor and garish color schemes. I also do not understand why the Lizardmen Seraphon did not get any new models, but the Fyreslayers get a Magmadroth and the Stormcasts get a Dracolith, Stardrake, and the Dracothian Guard. Does every faction have to start owning lizard and lizard-esque creatures? Are the Skaven going to ride rat-lizards next? The setting seems so foreign with the whole space-related and 40k-derived themes; there's no looming threat of Chaos consuming all, the bad guys feel like washed-up hoodlums who want a 3rd or 4th chance at world domination. I mean, how many times has Nagash been brought back to life now? Four? I do not get where things are headed story-wise, but death feels pointless in the new setting. Please re-release/update 8th edition as a specialist game, GW! Heck, I would even give Mordheim a shot if they updated it.
Actually I heard Mordheim and the other specialty games are all on the books to be re-released. Blood Bowl (WOOOOOHOOOO) is coming out later this year.
Exactly! Great points @Khelandros ! Claiming that the Slann don't have space ships is indicative of a refusal to read between the lines. No, GW didn't outright print the word "spaceship", but the might as well have. It would be like GW writing that a model has 2+2 attacks, and then claiming that it was incorrect to state that the model has 4 attacks because GW didn't actually print the character "4". Similarly, my reference to "Puff the magic space dragon" doesn't seem all that far off of the "great star drake Dracothion". Drake = Dragon/Serpent "Star" and "Space" are both astronomical entities/terms and their meaning in this context is essentially the same Considering Dracothion's abilities, it is safe to assume that he possesses magical powers So the only thing left is the comedic term "Puff" in the place of Dracothion. Pretty close to the mark I would say! At the end of the day, I'm not trying to convince anyone not to like AoS. To each their own; play whatever you enjoy. As for the discussion revolving around Fantasy vs. AoS... preference of fluff is subjective preference of models is subjective preference of game rules is subjective actual tactical skill required to master the game, Fantasy > AoS They are very different games. They are aimed at different audiences with different mindsets. Generally speaking, Fantasy works better in larger games with older players, while AoS works better in smaller games with a younger audience. Ultimately, Fantasy is gone and won't be coming back in the foreseeable future (if ever).
Despite the fact I've never been a very good tactician, I vastly prefer the challenge of Warhammer Fantasy over AOS. Kinda like how I get more enjoyment out of beating a video game at Hard difficulty than I do while playing Easy.
That's true, it still fills me with pride when I think back to beating this little game... It only had one difficulty: "nearly impossible"
Omg... farkin battletoads. /awakensancientrage I think the hardest old school game I ever beat was that damnable American Gladiators game for the SNES.
I never knew who should be sued: Games Workshop for stealing Battletoads, or Nintendo for stealing Slann and Skaven...
- Those ridiculous new names are so GW can trademark them. That's why they're also getting away from Space Marine and Imperial Guard - Not sure how to respond to this one. It's a fantasy game. Exactly what defines over the top? - Space Marines in fantasy....Can't argue this. That's what the Stormcast Eternals are. That's ONE army - Switching to round bases. Is the fact that the models look better on rounds not a legitimate enough reason? - No armies are broken up. Not only can sub factions fight together in the same army, different armies can fight together within the same alliance. - Tomb Kings and Bretonnians are pretty much un-trademarkable. They had to go and I just started some Brets. - You can give characters special abilities and artifacts. Please share what you're smoking - Can't respond to this. It is what it is. I do not fear change - The rules are spread out? They're 4 fucking pages long dude. How spread out could they be. Now I think you're making shit up. - You don't like the new models? That sucks to be you then because most people love them. Even people who hate fantasy and AoS say that - Simple magic phase. Again, do you fear change? I like complexity but for the sake of smooth games, this is a welcome change - You're definitely making shit up - This threw me for a loop too. So instead of remember one chart I have to now remember every unit. Still getting used to it - The points system is fine. You clearly don't play this game and are making shit up - Lizardmen are daemons now. Surprised you know any of the lore you hate - Ranks/flanks boring napoleonic tacitcs. This is a skirmish game now - Yes skulls - Sort of true. The models are also larger and you're ignoring all of the great new start collecting boxes which are great deals for starting new armies. It has never been cheaper to play fantasy. This is coming from one of those guys that didn't give this game a chance on announce. I was calling it every stupid name and crying about all the changes rather than giving it a shot. When the generals handbook came out adding points I tried it out. Loved it. Bought three brand new in box armies.
I see some toxicity in this thread, so I'm gonna leave it in a few moments, but not before having linked you this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraph Everybody has the right to hate or love AoS as much as he prefers (possibly in a respectful way... @OmniJackal , you agree?) but please, guys, has anybody never thought the "Seraphon" name could have had a deeper meaning rather than a "weird cartoon cat tickling fetish"? P.S. This link is a really interesting lecture, and could be a nice source of inspiration for the ones of us who likes to create fluff for their armies!
@OmniJackal : I sense a little bit of venom in your response. I think a couple of things should be made clear for you: First off, your constant accusations of me "making shit up" is not a valid argument. If you disagree with what I say (which is completely fine!) by all means raise some counter arguments (preferably with factual/logical support) but please don't misconstrue your blanket statement of "you're making shit up" as being any sort of intelligent counterpoint. Secondly, you should note (because you quoted it) that my original post clearly states that these are my personal opinions on the matter (this can be seen from my use of the words "I" and "personally", which were written in bold letters of a different font for emphasis) . Therefore, it shouldn't come as a surprise, that the content that follows is subjective in nature. In some cases those feelings can be backed up with supporting evidence, whereas in other instances it is purely personal preference. They are for trademark purposes (that is not in dispute), but that doesn't make them creative or great in any fashion. Aelf??? Although in GW's defense, some of that naming is so laughably pathetic that no one would want to rip off their intellectual property. Let's call that a win then? Everything has to be bigger and badder without any thought at subtlety or nuance. Who cares if a Sigmarine or Seraphon dies when they just come back to "life"? What defines something to be over the top? Well that is once again a subjective boundary. If you enjoy the fluff, then immerse yourself in it, but compared to written material that I consume, I feel it to be pretty lackluster. I think you're confusing the word "fact". Models looking better on rounds is not a fact, it is a personal preference. What looks better, red or blue? What tastes better, apple pie or cherry pie? Both are examples of personal preference... not fact! However, the act of switching bases to rounds has : created extra work, inconvenience and cost for those who had significant forces on squares made it more difficult for people to switch between games (ranked and skirmish), it can be done with specialized trays but that is an extra difficulty Those two points are facts. I am aware that you can combine them, but it is still messy. The GW site is now littered with factions where organized armies once stood. Not nearly to the degree to which you were able to in 8th edition. Can you play the game with just the 4 pages in isolation? The rules I am referring to are all the rules you need to play the game, not just the main rules. In Fantasy you needed the BRB + relevant army book; two items. With AoS you need to 4 pages of main rules, each and every warscroll for all of your units, the general's handbook, etc. So although the documents are shorter, more of them are required. Hence, "spread out". I'd love to see the data collection and statistical analysis you used to devise that "most" people love them. The fact that your gaming group or the members of your gaming store like them is anecdotal evidence and in no way indicative of the preferences of the greater population. I'm not saying that most people like or dislike them, we simply don't have access to that information. What is factual is that you seem to like them, whereas I do not (and hence a reason why I personally do not like AoS). I found the old magic phase to be much more robust, and I never found it to disrupt the flow of the game. It's not about fearing change, it's about having a negative reaction to what I feel is a change for the worse. If you found the previous system to be too complex, then by all means have fun with the more simplistic one. Personal preference! It's sort of sad that I don't play the game but I have a more sophisticated understanding of the refinement of its points system. If we are both playing a 2000 points game (me Fantasy and you AoS), and we each have 25 remaining points, I can add models to an existing unit, whereas you must purchase a whole unit (which may not be possible for the remaining points you have). As a consequence, the Fantasy points system is more granular; it has finer gradations of choice. I never said Lizarmen are Daemons, but agree that fluff-wise their function is nearly identical. Being part of the wargaming community I hear things (and I did look into AoS at its release). Luckily for me, I possess a brain that is able to remember things that I have sensory interaction with. It is skirmish game... which I personally like less. That's why I transitioned from 40K to fantasy. Personal preference! I am not ignoring the start collecting boxes. The "on average" portion of my statement takes care of that, and my words were deliberately chosen with that in mind. As for the models being larger... you can add scale creep to the list of AoS things I dislike. Either way, material-wise + production-wise + transport-wise + storage-wise, the size increase does not justify the price increase
After reading through some of the comments why wouldn't the Tomb Kings come back as a living, breathing version of their former selves? The Desert Kings, perhaps. They were and still are the enemies of Nagash (an undead army because big N likes it that way). Everything that did make it into AoS died, drifted thru space and time until they bumped into one of the eight realms, and (Lo! Behold!) found themselves alive again. Why wouldn't that work for a bunch of long dead not-ægyptians? It worked for everyone else.