Is a maxed out Sunclaw Starhost viable? Would be awesome to play a massive saurus horde. What other units should be in the list? Sunblood (Ghyrstrike) 3x40 Saurus
I've used a Sunclaw list (inside of a Fangs of Sotek) and really enjoy playing it. My List: Old blood on carno Slann Sunblood EoTG 40x Saurus 40x Saurus 10x Saurus Then I have 120 points to mess around with that I usually spend on some skinks. I've also allied in a Ballista before, or used some combination of endless spells (always with cogs ofc). I think 3 squads of 40 might be too much, I think having FoS adds a lot. The huge first turn move helps you jump on objectives and/or clog up the board. Between 90 warriors and Skinks getting pumped out every turn, I just outlast my opponent and use my superior movement with teleport to make sure i'm never leaving objectives unclaimed. Its kind of a pain to play and you don't really crush anything, but the grind and outlast play style really suits me. I don't really know how it compares to the shadowstrike or thunderquakes of the world, and I've yet to play Nagash or DoK with it so they might be problems. Either way, i'm really enjoying it right now and its something a little different.
I really like your list, I had totally forgotten the batallions in the ghb. I think a skink starpriest might be a good addition for it, with its Serpent staff ability.
The Serpents Staff is awesome. You will also get good value out of Summon Starlight. Being able to remove any amry's 6+ hit bonuses enables your Saurus Warriors to become shockingly resilient.
Fully buffed Saurus Warriors are really terrifying. Here is an example list that could make the Sunclaw work (not maxed out as I want to take those heroes, but 40+40+10 Warriors). Untested, but it makes me want to get some Saurus to try it. Allegiance: Seraphon Mortal Realm: Ulgu Leaders Saurus Sunblood (120) - Artefact: Dimensional Blade Skink Starpriest (80) Skink Priest (80) - Priestly Trappings Saurus Astrolith Bearer (160) Slann Starmaster (260) - General - Trait: Great Rememberer - Artefact: Incandescent Rectrices Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (260) - Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak Battleline 40 x Saurus Warriors (360) - Spears 40 x Saurus Warriors (360) - Spears 10 x Saurus Warriors (100) - Spears Battalions Sunclaw Starhost (130) Fangs of Sotek (70) Endless Spells Soulsnare Shackles (20) Total: 2000 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 2 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 130
Definitely, I have been running my Slann as Vast Intellect to get access to the spell but i have been thinking about throwing in the starpriest to free up all of the slanns spells for summoning. I usually cast the -1, forgo the other 2 spells and summon some skinks every turn. I think i might add in a priest for the reroll saves, it frees you up from needing to cast mystic shield and the warriors 5+ only goes so far.
@Putzfrau I wouldn't count on that reroll tbh. 5+ is bad, they will remain a glass cannon no matter what so it's better to realise that early on and stop hoping that "it will hang around for a while". It will not. Bitter experience says that And another thing that also hurt a lot to find out : 4+ does NOT come half of the time. It might overall but there 'll be fights that it 'll never be rolled. It happens and when you are counting on it it hurts. Finally if I d consider this, I would only consider it for the reroll of charges which is awesome idd !
Yeah, i use them a lot and they're never going to be super resilient. In a world of dice a 50% chance can't really be relied on but its certainly better than not being there It's one of those things where when it goes off, it can really gum up the works for whatever plan your opponent is putting together. Honestly the biggest thing i'm struggling with is that warriors really need a couple buffs to get going, and there's only so many points left over after filling out both battalions. ATM i'm liking the EOTG over some combination of the scar vet on carno/priest/starpriest/astrolith bearer, but we will see!
Skink Starpriest and Saurus Astrolith Bearer will get you more point value out of your warriors. EotGs is also fantastic. In 2k FoS list I bring all three of these units, but I don't run maxed Sunclaw with FoS. I normally only have one unit of 40 warriors. My typical FoS list is as follows: Allegiance: Seraphon - Mortal Realm: Ulgu LEADERS: Slann Starmaster (260) - General - Command Trait : Great Rememberer Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (260) - Artefact : Sword of Judgement Saurus Sunblood (120) Saurus Astrolith Bearer (160) Skink Starpriest (80) Engine of the Gods (220) UNITS: 40 x Saurus Warriors (360) -Spears 10 x Saurus Warriors (100) -Clubs 10 x Saurus Warriors (100) -Clubs 3 x Razordons (120) BATTALIONS: Fangs of Sotek (70) Sunclaw Starhost (130) ENDLESS SPELLS: Malevolent Maelstrom (20) TOTAL: 2000/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 2 WOUNDS: 115 The two open artifacts slots vary based on what armies I think I might be facing. Sometimes I also bring a different endless spell. I like Malevolent Maelstrom atm because I often see Nurgle, Sylvaneth, and Death armies; all of which have heavy spell use. If they fail to unbind & dispel it then it can really throw a wrench into their plans.
Like the list! I've been running the 40, 10, 10 battleline currently, but been splashing in 10 knights and a scarvet on cold one over the razordon/starpriest/astrolith combo. Razordon's are definitely an interesting approach, i like having some cheap shooting. I might try out a starpriest + astrolith instead of the EOTG and go from there, but we'll see. Gotta get in some more games and see what feels right. Either way I think the core of FoS is a good foundation to build around.
Whilst I love my Priest (when the damn guy works), I feel like Chronomantic Cogs is potentially very strong in a FoS list. +2 to move on the first turn stacks with the +3 from FoS, then March doubles to give you a 20" move. Without the Cogs it's 16", which is still very nice, but 20" gives you a huge range for setting stuff up. I'd actually consider taking Arcane Might on a Slann to ensure the Cogs go off. However my group always plays with the Realm rules so I'd always have plenty of spells to throw around. If I had a Slann that is.
Isn't placement a massive issue if you start playing with that many models? I wouldn't be surprised if a halfway capable opponent could easily avoid a significant part of your forces, and if they have some ranged firepower and a tarpit that'd allow them to relativly easily wittle you down even if the tarpit gets murdered in the proces.
You can mitigate some of those problems by using mobility abilities like LoSaT or the Oldblood on foot's command ability. But yeah, maneuvering a horde or outmaneuvering a horde (if you face one) is a skill that is important. I noticed that often when playing against Ironjawz, or when playing my Skeletons. Movement can make or break your game.
Still, even with teleports and such, a capable opponent should be able to ruin your day fairly easily, especially if you have obstacles on the battlefield. A single unit of 40 is often already a pain to actually get into combat and utilizing more than half of its troops at any given time borders on a miracle. With 3 of those it just gets that much worse. To be honest, that is one of the aspects I least like about AoS. Grand battles with giant hordes are fun and all, but the requirement of keeping them (losely) in formation means that they take a huge amount of space. A squad of 20 saurus warriors already feels fairly bulky.
Sure, it depends on your opponent and the table. However that's something I actually kinda like. Sometimes. Partly. I like that in AoS movement and being able to keep your hordes together is a signficant skill. I have won and lost battles solely because of the terrain placement and my (and my opponent's) ability to adjust to that. On an empty table my Deathrattle army will straight up destroy any SCE or Orruk army my friend has ever played against them. But on a moderately filled table he might outmaneuver me. On a very full table with lots of terrain my Thunderquake has never lost against Ironjawz because I can just put a Basti into a choke point and seal it off that way. Sometimes it looks easy, and the player with the better movement might make it look easy, but I have seen it swing both ways with different lists. All in all I think horde lists suffer from it more than others, yes. Especially if the horde units are on 32mm or bigger bases (like Saurus Warriors or Ardboys). Skellies and especially Skinks (8" speed) have it better as they are on smaller bases. But I am not so sure about the "easy" part. I guess that really depends a lot on both players.
I like the idea of it, the strategy involved with blocking advances and creating chokepoints is fun. I just feel like we could probably achieve that with units of 20 or even 30 as well. I don't think we'd lose much in terms of gameplay if hordes weren't a massive 40 and change it to be a bit smaller. Plus this would have the side effect of lowering the points required a bit as well which would be nice as it'd make it much more viable to field multiple hordes. Most hordes seem to be in the 300-400 point range I think, which is a tad expensive when you want to go for multiple of em, which is quite annoying in the case of stuff like the sunclaw as fielding the battalion at full power costs somewhere around 1500 points or something, so now you frequently get the "cheap" version which means you get 1 buffed up horde unit and 2 pointless fodder units...
Saurus Warriors work best in units of 40 or 10 though, because of the extra attack at 30+ models. Plus we get a discount for the final 10, meaning that if you were to take 30, there's really no reason not to pay the extra 60 points and take 10 more models. With regards to smaller sizes, taking 20 is pretty pointless since you're going to lose your +1 to hit as soon as you take a single casualty, and unbuffed Saurus Warriors aren't very scary. So you take a minimum size unit instead. These are by no means pointless however. Almost all missions in AoS require you to hold objectives to win. I can't think of the number of times in 40K that my minimum size squads of Gretchin won me the game, simply by sitting on an objective all game. Saurus Warriors are just as good at that, thanks to Leadership 10. Minimum size squads of Skinks do it better, since they're cheaper, but if you have to take those two extra units then it's not like they'll be pointless in most missions.
I think whatever you give up in maneuverability you gain in board presence. You can just cover so much of the board at any given time, maneuverability almost becomes a non-issue. If you look at the top armies right now (LoN, Nighthaunt, DoK) they are horde based armies, so I think there's something to be said about board presence > maneuverability.