I don't know if this thread should be here or in "Fluff"? It's probably not worthy of its own thread, but it's an idea that I just wanted to get it out there and I didn't want to hijack another thread. The recent thread asking the community what it might change about the Seraphon Warscrolls got me thinking. Just for fun, I'm looking at the Saurus Warriors and slightly altering their current abilities to minimize the "horde" concept of Saurus. What do you think? Too weak or too tough? (I feel like it makes hand weapons a little too good.) SAURUS - 100pts for 5 warriors Wounds: 2, Move: 5", Save: 4+, Bravery: 10 MELEE WEAPONS Celestite Hand Weapon - Range: 1”, Att: 1, Hit: 4+, Wound: 3+, Rend: -, Damage: 1 Celestite Spear - Range: 2”, Att: 1, Hit: 4+, Wound: 4+, Rend: -, Damage: 1 Jaws and Shield - Range: 1”, Att: 1, Hit: 5+, Wound: 4+, Rend: -, Damage: 1 ABILITIES Stardrake Shields: When you make save rolls for this unit, ignore the enemy’s Rend characteristic unless it is -2 or better. Savage Fury (or Celestial Fury?): Saurus equipped with Hand Weapons add 1 to this unit’s hit rolls it makes with Celestite Weapons, if it charged in the same round. Ordered Cohort (or Cold Blooded?): Saurus equipped with Spears add 1 to the number of attacks each model makes with Celestite Weapons, if it was charged by another unit in the same round.
Very fluff, Very like. would fit the theme for Saurus being bigger infantry, and fulfill a lot of the changes that many people have asked for while putting your own (non-horde) twist on it. +1 to hit when charging or when charged depending on the weapon doesn't seem OP to me, however these get close to elite status with the 50% save AND ignore rend -1 AND 2 wounds.... I would bump cost to 110.
I apologize for posting this in the wrong forum. Would a moderator be willing to move this thread to the "Fluff" section, please?
Oh I wasn't saying its fluff as in forums, I was saying its fluff as in it meets the lore of hulking Saurus being bigger than humans... empire troop is half the size of a Saurus and has the same wounds... this is totally ok in this forum IMO
Oh, gotcha. Sorry I misunderstood @ILKAIN. Thank you for the like and the comments. The point cost should probably go up, and it's the aspect of the adjustment about which I'm the most unsure. I won't deny that I waffled with leaving them at 1 Wound with the 4+ Save and altered abilities, or 2 Wounds with the original 5+ Save and altered abilities. They do get close to "elite" status with 2 Wounds, which feels like that should be the role of the Knights and Guard especially. Hmm... My thought with their abilities was 1) To NOT re-invent the wheel, and 2) Hopefully make them a versatile unit. In hand weapon set up I thought they would play more aggressively and the spear set up is a slower more defensive play style.
its actually that versatility that makes them far more viable, its just that even at 5 models that unit will stick around a while... hardy enough to survive a MW round or two, savey enough to stick though a round or 2 of fighting. what I wanted for the warriors (because I want a horde option and a none horde option) was to leave them at 1 wound, make their save 5+, but to make their shield a +1 to rolls that wasn't combinable with cover. I would then make changes to the guard to make them our elites (read as Non-Horde option) ... and then the knights to either make them true heavy cavalry or true light cavalry but not this horrible in between mess they gave us. I would personally switch your jaws attacks to be 4+/5+ only because in my mind its easy to quickly dart out and bite and be accurate, but they are only teeth, they shouldn't be piercing armor easily, so finding a squishy place to chew into should be a bit harder.
I like the look of this war scroll, but the warriors still don't pack as much punch as I think they should - especially as with 100 points for 5 you are getting half the number of celestite weapon attacks you would get with the current cost (100 for 10). If each warrior gets two attacks with their club/spear each, and they get bumped to 110 or 120 for 5 then I think we're in business.
Thanks all for the input so far. I decided to keep the unit's Wounds at 1 and their Saves at 5+, but I raised their Attacks to 2. I altered their shields to reduce Rend rather than just ignore it, so they would get some kind of save up to -2 rend. I also flipped their abilities, giving the charging club-wielders a bonus attack and the stalwart spear-wielders a "set for charge" bonus to hit. I've raised their points to 140, which feels a bit high when I look at some units from other armies, but seems fair. What do you think? SAURUS WARRIORS v2 - 140pts for 10 warriors Wounds: 1, Move: 5", Save: 5+, Bravery: 10 DESCRIPTION A unit of Saurus Warriors has 10 or more models. Some units of Saurus Warriors wield Celestite Clubs, while others are armed with Celestite Spears. In either case, they also maul the enemy with their Powerful Jaws and Stardrake Shields. ALPHA TALON The leader of this unit is the Alpha Talon. An Alpha Talon makes 2 attacks rather than 1 with its Celestite Club or Spear. STARDRAKE ICON Models in this unit may carry stardrake icons that pulse with the terrifying essence of a celestial predator. If a battleshock test is made for an enemy unit within 5" of any stardrake icons, add 1 to the result. WARDRUM Models in this unit may carry wardrums. A unit that includes any wardrums can march in its movement phase. When it does so, it doubles its Move characteristic but cannot run or charge in the same turn. MELEE WEAPONS Celestite Club Range: 1”, Att: 2, Hit: 4+, Wound: 3+, Rend: -, Damage: 1 Celestite Spear Range: 2”, Att: 2, Hit: 4+, Wound: 4+, Rend: -, Damage: 1 Jaws and Shield Range: 1”, Att: 1, Hit: 5+, Wound: 4+, Rend: -, Damage: 1 ABILITIES Stardrake Shields: When you make save rolls for this unit, reduce the enemy's Rend characteristic by 1. Savage Fury: Saurus equipped with clubs add 1 to the number of attacks each model makes with Celestite Weapons, if it charged in the same round. Ordered Cohort: Saurus equipped with spears add 1 to this unit’s hit rolls it makes with Celestite Weapons, if it was charged by another unit in the same round. . . . . . . . . EDIT: I thought about the unit a bit more and I tried to consider the comments concerning multiple Attacks and about keeping Saurus as a "horde". So, I want to include this version for critique as well. It returns the Attacks back to 1, but is boosted by the Abilities. SAURUS WARRIORS v3 - 120pts for 10 warriors Wounds: 1, Move: 5", Save: 5+, Bravery: 10 DESCRIPTION A unit of Saurus Warriors has 10 or more models. Some units of Saurus Warriors wield Celestite Clubs, while others are armed with Celestite Spears. In either case, they also maul the enemy with their Powerful Jaws and Stardrake Shields. ALPHA TALON The leader of this unit is the Alpha Talon. An Alpha Talon makes 3 attacks rather than 2 with its Celestite Club or Spear. STARDRAKE ICON Models in this unit may carry stardrake icons that pulse with the terrifying essence of a celestial predator. If a battleshock test is made for an enemy unit within 5" of any stardrake icons, add 1 to the result. WARDRUM Models in this unit may carry wardrums. A unit that includes any wardrums can march in its movement phase. When it does so, it doubles its Move characteristic but cannot run or charge in the same turn. MELEE WEAPONS Celestite Club Range: 1”, Att: 1, Hit: 4+, Wound: 3+, Rend: -, Damage: 1 Celestite Spear Range: 2”, Att: 1, Hit: 4+, Wound: 4+, Rend: -, Damage: 1 Jaws and Shield Range: 1”, Att: 1, Hit: 5+, Wound: 4+, Rend: -, Damage: 1 ABILITIES Stardrake Shields: When you make save rolls for this unit, reduce the enemy's Rend characteristic by 1. Ordered Cohort: Saurus are even deadlier when fighting in ranks of their spawnmates. Add 1 to this unit’s hit rolls if it has at least 20 models. Bred to Battle: Saurus equipped with clubs add 1 to the number of attacks each model makes with Celestite Weapons, if it charged in the same round. Saurus equipped with spears add 1 to the number of attacks each model makes with Celestite Weapons, if it was charged by another unit in the same round.
V2 is pretty much ideal IMO. Means they can be fielded in large or small numbers with good results. I would definitely feel incentivized to use Saurus more if they played like that. Do you think we could get away with those stats but also a 4+ save for 140 points? I really think Saurus should be a bit more resilient but that may be asking for too much / would make them too strong. Also maybe cap out squad size at 30 models and price them at 140 for 10 and 360 for 30 now that they don't get a buff from larger numbers?
Anything over their current points cost would be unusable IMO, unless they are bumped to 2 wounds. IMO Saurus should be exactly as they are, but with a 4+ save (or have like a 6+ FNP save of some kind like witch aelves. Can call it "cold-blooded resiliency or something)
could always make the shields optional... let them carry an additional club for an extra attack, or take the shield for +1 to save (making it 4+)
I hear you @Putzfrau, I struggle with making the points much higher than 100 for the same reason. But I think to give saurus warriors a better save merits some kind of point raise (and more wounds obviously does). Guard are 180 for 10 with +1 attack, +1 save, +1 hit and rend, compared to Warriors. That's 20 pts per bonus, to use OVERLY simplistic math. I guess I see the "base" Seraphon units as: Light Infantry/Skirmishers: Skinks (6+ save, 1 wound) Infantry: Saurus (5+ save, 1 wound) Cavalry: Knights (5+ save with 2+ wounds, or Heavy Cavalry if 4+ save with 2+ wounds) Elite Infantry: Guard (4+ save with 2+ wounds) Chameleons, Kroxigors, Terradons/Rippers are special units, and Salamanders/Razordons are as close to artillery as Seraphon have. *Forgive my ingnorance, but what does FNP save stand for?*
Sorry, its a 40k term. It stands for "Feel No Pain" and refers to a save you can take to all wounds lost (mortals, after all failed armor saves, etc).