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Aquaman is a very good movie, I now distrust Rotten Tomatoes

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Scalenex, Jan 2, 2019.

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  1. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Rotten Tomatoes gave The Dark Knight (2008) a 94% rating and Wonderwoman (2017) a 93% rating.

    That stuck in my craw. Wonderwoman was a very good movie, and I enjoyed watching it a lot, but as far as I'm concerned, The Dark Knight is the best movie of the 21st century. I can watch it over and over again and still enjoy it. The Dark Knight is more than 1% better.

    Aquaman is a very good movie. I think Aquaman is just as good a movie as Wonderwoman, maybe even slightly better. I can respect people stating the opinion opinion that says Wonderwoman was a better movie, but Rotten Tomatoes gave it a 64%. I can understand the case that Wonderwoman was better, but I cannot fathom Wonderwoman being magnitudes better.

    I've been avoiding critiques to avoid spoilers. Here is a critique that doesn't have any spoilers, but it's all summed up in the title which is Aquaman Was So Good It Made Me Mad.

    The gist of it, how do you make great movies based on Aquaman and Wonderwoman and so royally screw up Batman and Superman? I would add the Suicide Squad to the list. Sure it's not as famous, but 21st movies have a lot of anti-heroes and villain heroes. It should be a layup shot.


    Without going into a spoiler, there are two reasons I like Aquaman better than Wonderwoman.

    1) Aquaman's villains (both the A villain and the B villain) had a lot more character development than Wonderwoman's villains did. Wonderwoman didn't even speak to her B villain.
    2) Aquaman didn't have an over the top, overly lengthy exposition.

    I would recommend this for people who like action movies.

    Aquaman and Mera had far more meaningful interaction with non-superpowered surface world humans than Wonderwoman had with non-Amazonian humans.

    The visuals of the undersea settings and the undersea creatures were great. I understand Wonderwoman had a more mundane setting but Wonderwoman did have some fantastical elements too and I think Aquaman did the scenery better.

    Aquaman had a better hero's journey than Wonderwoman. Now don't get me wrong, Wonderwoman is not Rey. Wonderwoman did have a heroe's journey, she did have weaknesses to overcome, and she did have to train to gain her powers and skills.

    Diana, unlike Arthur, never even consider refusing the call. I think that's an important thing to have in the hero's journey. They don't have to literally refuse the call, but they should at least have some doubts or fears. Arthur's transformation to Aquaman had a larger character transformation than Diana's transformation to Wonderwoman.

    I think the writers, CGI animators, and action choreographers nailed the Trenchers even though they diverged from what comic fans would consider "canon"

    On the whole, I would say Aquaman and Mera had better on screen chemistry than Wonderwoman and Steve Trevor.

    The movie was not perfect.

    I enjoyed the scenery, but I think the costuming and CGI left something to be desired.

    They added something that does not exist in the comics. Only royalty can breathe air and water. The vast majority of Atlanteans cannot survive on land without some sort of reverse scuba suit. I don't mind the divergence from canon, but the reverse scuba suits looked sort of ridiculous.

    The underwater fight scenes were really cool. The above ground fight scenes were a little tacky, they were not on the level of awesome that was the fight scenes in Wonderwoman.

    The underwater hair movement affects were a little off putting. They were not on the level with the other visual effects.

    I've noticed critiques that state that Aquaman violated social justice principles. They say Mera was all too willing to play a subordinate role to the big brutish patriarch that was Arthur.

    I think this movie was if anything displayed misandry not misogyny. A large portion of the movie had the only sitcom dynamic where you have a big dumb man always saying and doing stupid things while his sassy intellectually superior girlfriend corrects him with a patronizing eyeball roll.

    While I am tired of the that trope of the sitcom couple with a blundering oaf boyfriend/husband and an eyeball rolling sassy girlfrifend/wife, but I wasn't really offended by it, just bored. On the whole, the working partnership of Arthur and Mera should not really offend either social justice warriors or traditionalists unless they want to be offended.

    Some criticized Aquaman for not directly addressing global warming. Others think the movie is a bit too preachy for covering it at all. I think if you get people from both sides mad at you, you are in the right place.

    One minor source of comic relief was Mera being completely ignorant of life on land which led to some funny misunderstanding.

    I won't spoil the jokes, but one thing that bugged me was that Mera could play the flute. Correct me if I'm wrong but an aquatic creature with no experience of living on land should not be able to pick up a flute and immediately be able to play a lovely tune.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
    Scalenex, Jan 2, 2019
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  2. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Wanting to be offended is the primary (and defining) feature of a SJW / NPC!!!

    This is also likely the reason for the low critics score on Rotten Tomatoes. Most critics are politically on the far left, so a movie that isn't "progressive" enough will often be rated poorly. Audience score is a much better indicator, but even that is being hijacked (The new She-Ra and the Princesses of Power being a prime example, where there are numerous fake accounts that score it 5/5).
     
    NIGHTBRINGER, Jan 2, 2019
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  3. ravagekitteh
    Skink Chief

    ravagekitteh Well-Known Member

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    Being left leaning and being an SJW are not interchangeable. Just because someone has those political views doesn’t mean they are an ‘SJW’ who’ ‘always being offended by everything’. And besides, being progressive isn’t a bad thing. Being progressive for the sake of it, especially in terms of casting - people should be chosen based on merit not tickboxes - isn’t ideal, but at the end of the day, if it means that a girl/transgender person/etc has a role model and representation that they didn’t have before, surely it can be forgiven? (Sorry if I’m implying that you’re against this, I just feel like things get criticised here for being ‘too progressive’ and appealing to ‘SJW’s more than they are praised for being inclusive and reflective of modern values)

    Anyway, on a more cheerful note, I might have to check this out. Justice League got pretty poor reviews, but when I saw it, it wasn’t anywhere near as bad as people said it was. It was not Dark Knight, but nonetheless very enjoyable. Sounds like this will be the same, so I might have to see it after all
     
    ravagekitteh, Jan 2, 2019
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  4. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I actually agree with this. First, I didn't say that being on the left equates to being an SJW. I used the term far left, which although doesn't guarantee a person is an SJW, it is much more highly correlated with it.

    Personally my political leanings range from center-left to center-right depending on the issue at hand. I don't care for the extremes of either the left or the right.

    Being on the left definitely doesn't make someone an SJW. Even being on the far left does not make someone an SJW. However, all SJWs hail from the far left.

    To be honest I am tired of all the casting that is being done based on a political inclusion checklist. So many movie franchises are being ruined by it (like Star Wars... Marvel may be next). It doesn't result in great story telling. It doesn't result in interesting characters. Take most of the female characters in the Star Wars sequel trilogy. Their roles feel shoe-horned into the film not for the sake of the story, but rather to meet a political agenda. None of these characters match up to female characters that were created with the story in mind (Ripley from Alien series, Sarah Connor from Terminator series). If a studio really wants to push an ultra progressive angle, then create something original, don't hijack pre-existing beloved franchises (that are loved because of what they were not what the studio is trying to turn them into).

    If you abandon merit in the selection of cast/characters than you're not creating very good role models. Role models should be people that have worked hard to achieve something and earned it; not given something because they belong to a specified group on a checklist. This isn't to mean that those people didn't work hard for it, but by definition, if not selecting on merit, someone else likely deserved it more. People from minority groups can achieve these feats just the same as anyone else, but let them do it on merit; then it will actually be meaningful. When done right, you get something like Black Panther, which was wildly successful and very well received.


    Anyways, I'd rather not venture too deep on this topic. It is very easy for misunderstandings to be had and for division to be created among forum members.
     
    NIGHTBRINGER, Jan 2, 2019
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  5. pendrake
    Skink Priest

    pendrake Well-Known Member

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    I have always distrusted Rotten Tomatoes.

    ...

    Goes for most movie critics. Once they become “established”, they become jaded, they start seeing nuances, looking for hidden meanings, noticing that subtle subtext...

    ...at which point they have lost forever any ability to be or think or react like an ordinary movie goer.
     
    pendrake, Jan 2, 2019
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  6. ravagekitteh
    Skink Chief

    ravagekitteh Well-Known Member

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    I was pretty sure that was the case, just wanted to check. I doubt we can compare political views in that way though, as while I don’t know much about the political leanings of Canada, but certainly compared to the US my understanding is that we across the pond have a more left based scale, and those of us that might consider ourselves right wing might still be considered lefties to some of you
    In an ideal world, everyone would be picked on merit and equal opportunities would mean everyone would have the capacity to achieve merit. However, until we reach that point, it is important people get equal representation. It’s difficult to balance and as much as I would like to and am pretending I do, I don’t have the answers. I think places it’s been done well include the new Doctor Who and Fantastic Beasts. It’s present but doesn’t affect the plot or compromise the characters or story. I think maybe the trick is to give it attention in its own films and in ones where it isn’t important, leave little nudges to it that don’t affect anything. Because while it’s not everything, transgender people, questions about sexuality etc are part of real life now - it doesn’t make sense to leave it out.
    Yes, let’s give @Scalenex his thread back before this descends into the forum equivalent of a fist fight.
     
    ravagekitteh, Jan 2, 2019
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  7. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    That is the whole crux of the "equality of opportunity" vs. "equality of outcome" debate. I get the feeling that we fall on opposite sides on that battlefront.


    Indeed! :)
     
    NIGHTBRINGER, Jan 2, 2019
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  8. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    I tend to support Left of center politics but I loathe SJW politics.

    The way I describe it, it wasn't bad, it just was okay. Justice League had a huge production budget, skilled actors, and a team of some of the most iconic characters of all time and it was okay.
    Indeed, lets keep the focus on DC movies and movies they contrast with.

    Warner Brothers DC Animation studios makes about three animated DC movies per year. They have been slowly ramping up production and is making five or six animated films in 2019. So far, every live action DC movies parallels an animated DC movie with the same main character or character(s) and the same basic plot.

    Justice League: War (2014) and the live action Justice League (2017) both involve a team of DC superheroes reluctantly team up fight off an invasion from Apocalypse. In my opinion, echoed by many. The animated film is much better than the live action version.
    -The villain was more interesting
    -The dialogue was better
    -The personal subplots were better
    -The pacing was better
    -The sequel setup to the next movie did not weaken this movie.

    The live action Aquaman (2018) was preceded by the animated movie Justice League: Thone of Atlantis (2015). The plot is extremely similar. Arthur Curry, the half-human/half-Atlantean has been avoiding his Atlantean heritage until his half-brother's evil plan and the pleas of an attractive redheaded warrior woman reluctantly convinces him to fight for his people who he never met.

    Throne of Atlantis is a good movie, but Aquaman is the first live action movie that is objectively better than the animated equivalent. I thought Wonderwoman (2009) and Wonderwoman (2016) were about equally good though I do sort of have a crush on Gal Gadot...so bonus points there.

    I am pondering making a thread of my own movie reviews on L-O, but I'm not sure my opinions are universal enough to interest people. And I'm not sure if I need some sort of universal five star system or keep things informal.

    But for now. As for the 32 animated movies released since 2007. I believe they are all worth watching for people who like superheroes except for Batman: The Killing Joke which you should only watch if you want to make your own Mr. Plinkett video.

    Batman Ninja     is a special case. No one thinks Batman Ninja is a good movie. I happen to believe that Batman Ninja is so bad that is good. In other words it is the right kind of bad in that you can watch it ironically and have a lot of fun. Not everyone likes to watch bad movies ironically.

    There are also three or four I have yet to watch.

    My favorite animated DC movies that I believe even casual movie fans who aren't huge fans of animated films should watch
    Justice League: The Flashpoint Paradox
    Justice League: War
    Justice League versus Teen Titans     (whose only real flaw is a very misleading title).
    Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths
    Batman: Gotham By Gaslight    .

    But really I'm all about Young Justice season 3 which debuts in 37 hours. That's the sole reason I signed up for DC Universe. The other stuff on DCU that I like is just a cherry on top of my sundae.
     
    Scalenex, Jan 3, 2019
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  9. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I'd take Killing Joke over Batman Ninja any day of the week. Killing Joke is okay, but it never lived up to its potential.
     
    NIGHTBRINGER, Jan 3, 2019
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  10. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    Just sitting here watching this like...

    [​IMG]

    (Partly because I’ve never seen any DC films except the old Superman films with Christopher Reeve :oops:)
     
    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl, Jan 3, 2019
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  11. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    The live action stuff hasn't been all that great (for the most part) but I'm surprised you haven't seen any of them.
     
    NIGHTBRINGER, Jan 3, 2019
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  12. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    DC Comic films just aren’t really my cup of tea I don’t think.
     
    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl, Jan 3, 2019
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  13. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    To be fair, quite a bit of the animated films are pretty good. You might want to check a few of them out.
     
    NIGHTBRINGER, Jan 3, 2019
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  14. ravagekitteh
    Skink Chief

    ravagekitteh Well-Known Member

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    I would say that DC is superior to Marvel against almost everything - characters, video games, animation etc. The only part in which they lose out is films, and even then, they have the best film of the lot - Dark Knight. The only reason that Marvel is better at it than them is that while DC has the best, Marvel makes consistently good films, while with DC it’s extremely hit and miss (see Batman and Robin). However, in practically all other aspects I think DC is better than Marvel (frankly I think you can just quote something related to Batman to trump Marvel at anything- Dark Knight, Arkham Series, BTAS etc).
     
    ravagekitteh, Jan 3, 2019
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  15. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    @ravagekitteh . I agree with most of your post, but not all of it.

    Actually I would recommend no one see the movie known as Batman and Robin.
     
    Scalenex, Jan 3, 2019
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  16. King Dust
    Saurus

    King Dust Well-Known Member

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    Can't wait. But also Static Shock is top tier and highly recommended, even if it doesn't hit your nostalgia button of Saturday morning cartoons like it does for me.
     
    King Dust, Jan 4, 2019
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  17. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    And even in the films we may see a changing of the guard. Aquaman is doing very well and the new Joker movie with Joaquin Phoenix looks intriguing (even though we have been shown very little as of yet). On the other hand there are disturbing signs that the MCU might be headed down the path of ruin as Star Wars did before it. Captain Marvel could be the beginning of the end. They just better not mess up Avengers 4!!! :mad::mad:


    Wiser words have never been spoken. I wish I could unsee it!
     
    NIGHTBRINGER, Jan 4, 2019
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  18. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    Oh, I binged watched Static Shock over a month ago! Static Shock was a very good show on it's own merits. It was also good because it was able to cover racism, bullying, school shootings, homelessness, gang violence, domestic abuse, and other serious issues without pointing fingers or coming across as offensively preachy and without detracting from the basic storytelling. To add a cherry on top, they managed to keep an air of cautious optimism even when covering very dark subjects.

    There was one persistent flaw that bothered me. Virgil and Gear were really really sloppy about protecting their identity. Everyone should have figured out who they were very quickly.

    There is an attempt to make a high quality amateur live action Static Shock movie. I wish them well but it's an uphill climb. The casting they have seems excellent and it seems to have the spirit of the original show with a nice 2018 feel to it.



    Anyway 10 hours till Young Justice Season 3 premieres...

    In the mean time, I can watch Green Lantern the Animated Series which was recently added to DCU. I was hoping to create a funny meme around this now that I'm figuring out how to do screen captures, but I'm not sure how to make a visual gag/meme out how the animated series is good and everything else starring Green Lantern is not.

    I guess I should warn people about the two animated Green Lantern movies. Are they better than the live action dumpster fire? Yes...but not by enough. I would recommend the animated Green Lantern movies for hardcore DC fans, but I would not recommend them for casual DC fans.

    When Green Lantern is put in a supporting role, is pretty awesome. His ongoing dialogue with Batman in Justice League: War was one of the highlights of that awesome movie.
     
    Scalenex, Jan 4, 2019
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  19. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    What I would like to see is both DC and Marvel consistently making excellent movies and their competition driving them to greater and greater heights.

    I am not optimistic about the Joker movie. I think Heath Ledger's amazing performance is lightning in a bottle that cannot be duplicated. Were I in charge of DC I would de-emphasize the Joker for about 15 years.

    There are nearly two dozen Marvel cinematic universe movies. The worst among them was still an enjoyable movie (though I may be the only person on Earth who enjoyed The Incredible Hulk and was sorry they let Edward Norton go). I think Marvel's EU can survive one bad movie. I'm making an educated guess that Captain Marvel will be a weak movie by Marvel standards because Brie Larson's acting is perfect for playing a character in The Phantom Menace, and the attempt to hype up the social justice aspects of the film is backfiring, but it looks like the special effects, side characters, pacing, and all the other stuff is on point.

    I don't see Captain Marvel failing in nearly every category like Suicide Squad and Dawn of Justice.

    According the Nerd-o-sphere, Disney is poorly managing Marvel's actual comic book sales, but the comic book industry as a whole as been struggling for quite a while. I'm not sure if that's really a problem for the movie going public. There is plenty of old material to mine.

    I wish I didn't pay full price for it the week it came out...It was a producer, director I liked. Legendary voice actors and one of the most celebrated comics of all time. How did they they take all those ingredients and fail!

    I almost want to review it in depth but that would require me rewatching this. While no one single factor is to blame, I believe the main difficulty is that this was Bruce Timm's first rated R movie and he has to learn how to use the new storytelling tools that gave him.

    I have not watched Batman and Harley Quinn (I'm hoping DC Universe will put it up soon so I can watch it for free), but I understand it had a fairly controversial scene in it which I did view.

    Harley Quinn rapes Nightwing and he and everyone else is okay with this.
     
    Scalenex, Jan 4, 2019
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  20. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Wouldn't that be great!

    Heath Ledger's Joker will probably never be beat. However, this looks like a different take on the character and I think it is an origin story of sorts. As such, it won't be in direct competition with Ledger's Joker.

    I'm not sure if it will turn out to be good, but I am excited to give it a try.

    I hope it fails big time! Boycott!!

    Brie Larson doesn't even deserve to be in The Phantom Menace. You would place her alongside Ewan McGregor, Ian McDiarmid and Liam Neeson? ;) She would be the equivalent of the "I don't like sand" scene of Episode II.

    This is the real worry for me. If it is confined to this single movie, then I have no problem with it as I'll be skipping it in the theater anyways. However, if this is to be the trend going forward (and the early warning signs are there), then it could destroy the MCU.

    In reference to your spoiler:
    I just re-watched the scene, it is definitely not rape. There is consent.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
    NIGHTBRINGER, Jan 4, 2019
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