For our teleport & summoning I'd actually dump the range requirement and instead give us a different disadvantage in the form of a fairly significant debuff. I'd rather we suffer say -1 on all our combat and casting rolls after summoning/teleporting, but can actually get in the correct position than the current arbitrary range requirement that is either completly irrelevant in case you can shoot or have a charge modifier or leaves you unable to actually do anything that turn. Your conjuration is better than the current one. I'd avoid the randomness of the D3. And I'd include spells/command abilities/prayers/artifacts/etc. to help improve it. The general idea of drawing lay lines I like. Numbers will obviously need tweaking. For made of star stuff. Making them better when away from our wizards is probably going to be a pain to play around. Especially considering our wizards can't defend themselves against anything and we rely heavily on synergies requiring us to be near them. Also, it doesn't really make intuitive sense as a rule representing reality but seems more an arbitrary rule made to balance the game. The idea itself of not being allowed to turtle can be interesting though, but would require us to be vastly less dependent on synergies & sticking together. As for the mount traits. I think some of them might be too clearly the best pick in most situations. Also, bread is a baguette or a sandwich. Bred is the verb you're looking for.
like i sead this is the first draft we can change things until we get them right your teleport idea is much better then mine. thanks i put a lot of thought into conjuration maby just a flat 2 for slann then that would make him generate 4 if near a warden and a priest witch is deasent the thing with star stuff is most of our new buffs will be priest and commander bassed it would only aplly to star priests Trogladons(im getting to them don't worry) and slann even then most of the buff spells have a better range then 6" and even if they can't reach 18 5+ shrug is a really good buff we are already masters of positioning we need a few down sides. ya i thought tuf beyond reason was a bit much ill give it a second go over. i wanted to keep in the spirity of GW and throw in a few usles ones any more you think are to strong i'm not above changing things. sorry for the bad English it's not my first language google auto correct can only help so much
I think sticking the slann on 3 would be better. Than you can have saurus heroes at 1 and skink heroes at 2 to create a couple of tiers instead easily. It won't necesarly be "bad" because it's too weak but it'l feel frustrating cuz it forces you to play awkwardly. A starpriest needs protection, otherwise he's just gonna get shot or ambushed and instantly killed. Balancing the need to protect a super squishy hero with the need to stay a certain distance from him is just rather awkward, especially if your opponent can easily jump into the gaps. Made of sunlight is probably the single best one of the generic ones in most situations given how much you want to keep behemoths healthy. Sharp hide is far too weak. Calming presence is relativly weak given we already have a bravery of 10. Wait, wait I got this is probably going to be the single best trait in most situations on an EoTG. mostly just improve the weak ones though. None of the good ones are properly overpowered. The weak ones are just underpowered. Don't worry too much, making mistakes is the only way you can learn I just found the bread typo funny
first two points are fair might just change it to be 6+ flat out makes us very deathy/chaosy but fine sharp hide dose need a second look i made calming presence week deliberately very GWy but the thing is the way i worded it it applies to allies as well(another thing im going to go over when i get to it) another thing to keep in mind is you only get 1+ number of battalions mount traits for your entire army so you aren't just comparing them with the same monster traits your comparing them against all of them.
If I remember correctly the other faction's mount traits were applied to every mount. No limitation based on the number of battalions like artifacts have. That could indeed be usefull, but far more difficult to judge right now
all of the armies you mentioned have that limit to them Steeds of the Celestial Realms One mount in your army (+1 per additional Warscroll Battalion) may be "exceptional" and take a trait from the relevant tables. Magmadroth Traits MAGMADROTHS only. Only one of your magmadroths can take one of these. For every battalion, you can assign one of these traits to another magmadroth. Mount Traits Similar to artifacts, you can pick one to give to your mounted ghoul kings. And for each battalion you have, you can pick another. Completely independent from artifacts, which is awesome. Designer's Commentary also confirms that these traits may be duplicated, unlike Artefacts of Power.
right, must have misremembered then. Also sigh... I don't like the limitations by battalion. It's annoying when you got few battalions compared to the amount of heroes (and in this case mounts) you field..
ok round two lets do this Masters of Order: SLANN WIZARDS in a SERAPHON army can attempt to unbind enemy spells and dispel endless spells that are cast anywhere on the battlefield, rather than being limited by the usual 30" range. this is good as things are now but would end up very very powerful if we ever got bonuses to unbinds we don't want a repeat of nagash making all wizards useless so i would make this work just like our spells do where we can unbind from any skink within 15" but i would change it to 12" Contemplations of the Ancient One: To go with the new spell lore from GHB 2019, at the end of your hero phase, 1 friendly SLANN WIZARD can swap their Seraphon Lore spell with another. Lords of Space and Time: Once per turn, in your hero phase, you can pick one of your SERAPHON units anywhere on the battlefield to be transported through space and time. If you do so, remove the unit from the battle field and set up again anywhere more than 9" from any enemy unit (This counts as the unit's movement for the next movement phase). units that travel in this way suffer -1 to hit and save rolls until the end of the battle shock phase Celestial Conjuration any general can summon not just the slann i know they are saposed to be the ones creating our troops but we need options and there is already precedence for channeling thru a different unit. points are generated thru the following methods geomantic lay lines when ever a serephon wizard is within 6" of a objective he generates 1 summon point slann generate a 3 Meeting of minds when a wizard is within 8" of another hero they generate 1 summon point for each hero within range slann generate 3. newly summoned units suffer -1 to hit and save rolls until your next hero phase Made of star stuff reduse all rend by one for serephon units in this army this makes it apply across the board shields can do something else General traits Jungle hunter treat all terrain as if the behemoth had flight Made of Sunlight heal d3 in your hero phase Blood on the wind +2 to charge roles Carnasaur traits Dread terror you blood roar comes into effect even if the unit is immune to battle shock tests Clever girl you only need one hit with your claws to gain +2 to bit hits with bights Savage furry attacks made by the mount on a hit roll of 6 gain rend -3 Bastiladon traits tuf beyond reason your mortal wound protection becomes 3+ Tranquil if the bastiladon doesn't move in the movement phase gain +1 to hit rolls Sharp hide attacks that hit a bastiladon but fail the wound roll deal mortals to the attacking unit stegadon Traits Bred for war pick a melee weapon add 1 to the damage Calming presence +2 bravery to all friendly units within 8" Faster then he looks can run and charge/shoot in the same turn Trogladon traits Royal from the deep a veteran of many conflicts add 1 to save rolles chosen of the stars +1 to casting and unbinding costic blood every time you take a wound roll a die on a 3+ deal a mortal wound to a unit within 3" Engeon of the gods traits Wait wait i got this add or subtract 1 from cosmic engine rolls chosen of fait -1 to hit rolls that target this unit Bred for war pick a melee weapon add 1 to the damage
Command Traits Slann Command Trait Arcane Might: Re-roll one casting and unbinding or dispelling roll each hero phase. A modest trait, and the most "generic" of the three. Vast Intellect: The general can use the Curse of Fates and Summon Starlight spells from the Skink Starseer and Skink Starpriest warscrolls. This is quite awesome, honestly, given how unreliable the regular Light of the Heavens is. Casting both of them will let you summon a Mystic Shield or Arcane Bolt and all four of them are arguably way, way better than LotH. Great Rememberer: as long as the general is still alive, you can use the Lords of Space and Time battle trait twice in each of your hero phases rather than only once. Teleport, as previously mentioned, is awesome. Doing it twice is just twice as awesome. Saurus Command Trait Disciplined Fury: Re-roll wound rolls of 1 for attacks made by serephon units within 12" Thickly Scaled Hide: increase rend resistance by one for him and seraphon units within 3" Mighty War Leader: If your general is on the battlefield at the start of your hero phase, roll a d6. On a roll of 4+ you receive an extra command point. Skink Command Trait Master of Star Rituals: priests can re-roll prayers wizards can use one Nimble: Add +1 to the general's Move characteristic. Add +1 to its save finder of ways: no summoning or teleport debuff you only get one but no down side!
Best way to balance summoning if units get better is to increase the amount of CCP the units cost. In my opinion, I love the feel of my Slann generating CCP. It makes them feel like the most powerful wizards in the universe. They don't even need to roll for, nor can their magics be unbound. They just GET to summon Seraphon. Nothing their opponent does can stop the reality bending magics of a Slann. The same goes for LoSaT with Great Remember. They are just that powerful of wizards.
this is also a way to re-balance the thing is most don't like the slann just sitting there every one i talk to about it wan't to use the slann for casting but can't because we are so dependent on summoning. i wan't to fix this make it so if the slann dies we can keep playing and let him hurl death like masdamundy of old.
Seraphon Spell Lore this one is a lot harder we have to make the spells worth using without re writing them lets do our best! Celestial Apotheosis CV5, 1 visible friendly unit wholly within 18" heals 1 wound, and gets an aura giving enemies within 3" -1 Bravery. make the healing a d3 im not a fan of healing i think it's often much better to prevent damage then heal it but this is a cheep spell and a d3 will make it not useless now for the bravery.... bravery is not the stat it used to be with the way inspiring presence works and the near universal battal shock immunity this is neerly useless lets replace it with +2 movement Claws of Glory CV6, 1 visible friendly unit wholly within 18" can re-roll wound rolls of 1 until your next hero phase. Walk Between Realms CV6, 1 visible friendly unit wholly within 18" can fly until your next hero phase. eh i can't chage this outright and if we don't need spells to summon flight is fairly useful Meteoric Convocation CV7, pick 1 visible enemy unit within 24". Roll 8 dice, for each 5+ they take 1 mortal wound. change the CV to 6 you do less then 3 damage on average still not worth taking but better Mystical Unforging CV8, pick 1 visible enemy Hero with an artefact of power within 12". They take D3 mortal wounds and on casting roll of 10 their artefact no longer has any effect. Stellar Tempest CV8, pick 1 visible enemy unit within 24". Roll a dice for every model in the unit, for each 5+ they take 1 mortal wound. eh it's not bad it's just currently not worth 5 skinks worth of summoning
Issue with that is that it's not interactive and thus not interesting as a game mechanic. Your opponent has 0 influence on it. You have 0 influence on it. It's just there. For a mechanic this powerfull that's rather bad. Also, our slann needs to be able to do something besides summoning. Imho, tzeentch's mechanic of "spells being cast creates points" is the best. It's thematic. It solidifies Tzeentch as a casting based army. It gives both you and your opponent options to influence it. And most importantly; it introduces a trade-off in the decision to cast (for the opponent) and unbind (for the player). Namely, do I unbind this spell, and prevent it from killing some stuff, or do I allow my opponent to cast so I can generate more points (and similarly your opponent has to decide if generating points is worth casting his own spells). It's also the only mechanic that properly scales with game size.. The only flaw in it is the sheer amount of casts they need to get their basic summons in (their second and third tier are surprisingly not that much more expensive than their first). That could've been a bit less steep. Personally I'd give the slann a base-generation of CCP, to drive home the point that they're the supreme summoners and wizards. Then add in a mechanic where we have to make a decision for generating & which opponents can influence. I like the idea of the ley-lines, where keeping your various heroes close together allows you to generate points by creating a geomantic web. It's spread out over the various units. It limits our mobility, which helps keep our teleporting and summoning in check. And introduces some nice limitations for your opponent to take advantage of (for example if we stack too much we're suspectable to endless spells). It's also rather thematic and a nice throwback to the world that was. And lastly introduce some traits/artifacts/prayers/spells/etc. for some extra options to flesh things out and give some flexibility. Now back to @Erta Wanderer's suggestions. Sharp hide is lacking when your opponent has few attacks, or good wound rolls, and massivly OP when your facing something like say a unit of buffed up skeletons with their 500 attacks but only a mere 4+ to wound. Maybe try taking the shield from a celestant on stardrake? That effect seems fitting here. As for the spells: Apotheosis: make it D3 healing and ressurect fallen models. Basicly fixes the entire spell. claws of glory: better, at least we don't have 5 variations of "re-roll wounds of 1" still not very good though as we don't have much to stack it with. If we had easy acces to say both this and a +1 to wound it'd be a brilliant combination. Though this is more a matter of giving us acces to more buffs than it is of this spell needing a significant buff. Walk between realms: at minimum it should make the unit faster. Meteoric convocation: is actually in a decent place and above average for single target nukes as far as spells go. It's just that spells in general can feel oddly weak damagewise in AoS with a few noteable exceptions. Most don't reach above an average of 2 damage unless they're specificly made to wipe out hordes. Which in itself is fine. But with how easy other things can pump out damage that ends up feeling oddly underpowered. Unforging: I like your version better than the original version. At least now it's clearly a damage spell first and foremost & the bonus effect can be made more reliable by adding in casting bonusses. Still don't really like the spell though. Stellar tempest: see meteoric convocation, it's good as far as spells go. It's just that spells can feel weirdly underpowered. At least since it targets hordes and thus easily gets 20+ dice to roll it averages out nicer and you can actually rely on it doing some significant damage whereas spells like meteoric convocation occasionally completly fizzle
I really the like the manner in which Slann's fluff and rules are presented at the moment. I would be very sad if it changed. It feels like much stronger magic to have something so potent that enemy wizards don't even know enough about it to attempt to stop it. I understand that not all players view it this way though. I also like from a balance perspective that if the Slann dies the army begins to crumble.
I disagree with your base assumption that any mechanic the opponent can't interact with is a bad mechanic. There are tons of mechanic that only the controlling player interacts with per phase. Nearly all allegiance abilities operate in this manner, of which our summoning mechanic is one. However, it is interactive from a controlling player perspective. You can invest into more or less summoning from your Slann. You have to choose which units fit the moment. There are a myriad of ways in which this mechanic is player controlled interactive. Instead of changing summoning they just need to give more Seraphon Spell Lores that are worth casting. This will lead to more decision making. Even still I find myself often chosing to cast Stellar Tempest to thin an enemy horde on an objective, Meteoric Convocation to knock some wounds off an enemy behemoth or support hero, or any of the myriad of spells from the various Realms of Battle. Something Similar to Tzeentch would also be interesting. However, for Seraphon to stay at a similar power level to its current state we would either need buffs to the all the units we can summon or the CCP cost of each unit would need to go way down.
at the moment im just spit balling Sharp hide the gole was to make them hard to tar pit without making them a melee monster 280 is just too much to be easily countered by chaff ill give the spells a second look now that i have feed back
it is the gole of this page to buff up all of our units. the thing is the slann is currently an auto pick and it's never a good thing for units to be so good or so nesesery in this case that you have no option but to take him. its the same as with a unit being so bad that you never take them. an army is at it's best when everything is good and nothing is broken. at the moment the slann being the only general we can reasonably run is a problem and the point of this exercise is to fix all of our problems i agree with you the rule is very lore friendly and it makes cence but this shouldn't come at the expense of the rest of our army. their are other ways to make them awesome and i'll get to the slann.
Most mechanics that have no interaction are nowhere near as powerfull & disruptive to the game. They rarely change the entire battlefield in the same way summoning new units does. The few things that aren't tend to be very limited in how much it can do and how often it can be used (e.g. tzeentch cheat dice are "only" 9 dice, which is impactfull, but compared to the 100's of dice rolls you can make in certain games the actual control it gives is limited) This would be true if our spells were properly good. Right now our spells are simply too "weak"/our summoning too powerfull. Especially at lower levels of play, which will cause most players to just default to summoning with their slann and just using their skinks for the occasional spell (hell, just summon the skink...). Especially at "normal" levels of play ( high level tournaments probably has that less as the players'll recognize the correct situations for spells better and actually have the skill to capetolize on em) Also I think that ultimatly summoning simply needs to be changed to stop the slann sitting in a corner summoning from being all but mandatory. As long as you have some variation of what we have now, and the mechanic itself remains even remotely viable, 99% of seraphon lists will probably include a slann and have him sit in a corner while summoning and not doing much more as it's just an increadibly powerfull mechanic no matter how costly. The sheer versatility something like guaranteed summoning gives will simply make it the default strategy and the faction will need to be balanced entirely around the possibilities that gives. Furthermore, it's a relativly easy mechanic to use with reasonable effectiveness without much skill, so it's liable to become a crutch for most players making it an even more dominant pick. yup, especially our bigger stuff.
I just don't view this as a problem. Also, our summoning isn't as non-opponent interactive as you seem to view it. Seraphon are restricted on where units can be summoned. Only the method for generating the CCP is non interactive for the opponent. It is also far from the strongest of Allegiance Abilities. Yes, you should bring a Slann in every 2k list. However, you should also bring one or more Keeper of Secrets, one or more Death Wizard, one or more Fyreslayers Priest, one or more Plague Furance, one or more Blood Secrator, ect. Army's have identity in AoS. Part of what makes Seraphon appealing is our unique style of play and army identity. You only "need" the Slann if you are playing at tournaments and want to win them.