I just noticed, that we talk a lot about new summoning rules, and if we can use it multiple times on Slann and how it got nerfed and all this kind of stuff. But I'd really like to ask to share experience with new summoning. I had only one game with Starborne and, I guess, many of those, who was already able to test new battletome, were toying with Coalesced too. I really hope, that we will see Art of Summoning 2.0 someday, but untill then: what are your initial thoughts? First of all, Slann general requirement seems like a problem. There are several nice skink traits to go for, but Dracothion's Tail forces you to take Arcane Knowledge, which is good, but we don't always want it. Great Rememberer seems more handy, because of bonus CP. But even the greater problem is that you, probably, want Kroak over Slann. Which means, that you don't get command trait in this case at all. Probably, we can live with it, because Kroak is so much better than Slann. Alternatively it is a starseer, but its not that you really want the traits on him - you want them on stegadon heroes or, at least, on a priest for free CP. On the other hand, his spell is good, so stacking master of star rituals + astrolith makes it very likely to go off. Looks like way better choice, than Slann. If you take on, of course. Second, if you are not going specifically for summoning, 3d3 CCP is what you are most likely getting - d3 for Slann general, d3 for one spell and d3 for Astrolith, which is a good hero and you want him anyway. Taking a second slann may be considered in more magic-centered builds and Oracles are just not worth it. 3d3 on average is 6, of course, sometimes you will get less, sometimes more, and this is what I hate about summoning. Straight 2 CCP from a single source would be way better. With random generation you cannot preplan. But that's what we get. Third, the summoning happens in the end of the movement phase - at the same point as our teleportation, which means that: a) you may teleport summoner in position and than summon a unit; b) you can teleport a summoned; c) you can teleport a hero to support a summoned unit. This allows you great flexibility at positioning summoned units, while keeping heroes where they are needed. Forth, not necessary, but most likely, you want to get profit from unit as soon as you summon it. This means that bringing melee unit only for purpose of killing or a support hero, which casts/commands in hero phase, is most likely inefficient. Objectives grabbers, roadblockers, pressure appliers and 10"+shooters are winners here. 1) 6 CCP per turn is a unit of skink on average, which is pretty nice on its own. Skinks are not the objective stealers which they used to be, but put them in cover, and they can hold a bit on their own. After all, it is 50 additional wound to your army. They are nice just because they are fast and can defend backfield objectives. Even if you roll 1 on d3 6x times, you still can get them by turn 2. After skinks we are going to 10 CCP category, which includes Terradons and Chief, Ripperdactyls and Chief, Warriors, Knights, Guard, Chameleons, Priest, Warden, Oldblood, lesser ScarVet and both hunting packs. You will be, most likely, summoning twice per game if you are aiming for this category. Salamander is always nice. It is pretty random without rerolls and Priest's CA, but it is 6 wounds in 4+sv, 4 bodies and 4 fire spits, which can cause mortal wounds. And they don't need to roll 9+ to do something. Looks like the best generalist choice. Razordons are the same, but almost always worse. Good thing, in a few cases where you'd prefere razordon over sallie, you can just summon it. Warriors are not nearly as bad as they used to be, compared to skinks. They are tougher and can actually punch things now, same bodies and skinks and only 4 CCP more to summon. 5-man guard unit can be summoned to guard slann or Kroak, still 5 bodies, 10 wounds, 4+ sv. Knights look a bit worse in the same scenario, because they are best on charge and as defensive unit the guard is probably better. Chameleons are wierd here, because their shooting is underwhelming and they are squishy and only 5 bodies. However, going to ambush is in the end of the movement phase now, so you can summon them, hide right away and then go out on the next turn. Hard to judge on paper, how much is it worth it, but it is definitely a tool to take note of. Terradons, once again, is a unit you want on table from the start. However, with possible bonus to charge, they can bombard on the same turn they are dropped in and an intersting choice, if you already have a Chief nearby. Alternatively, their high movement allows them to be used in later turns for more reliable Deadly Cargo and backfield objective hunting. Rippers are practically the same - they are interesting, if you already have chief. His ability range is large enough, so they can easily be buffed in combat phase. Problem, of course, with 9+ charge, for which you need starseer or hunter's steed or cogs, etc. Alternatively, looks like you receive a single blot toad for each ripperdactyl unit. And nothing stops you from using it from a summoned one. Might be helpful, if you still have a large ripper unit with chief, which already used the ability. Chiefs are not a bad choice, IMO, especially the ripper one. Limited leader slots can be a problem, and if you want to commence the assult on turn 2, you can summon the chief, instead of taking one, because their ability is used in combat phase. With Ripper everything is easy - used in combat phase, 18" radius; with terradon - not so much - shorter range, and you may want to go in movement phase. Oldblood and scarvet are interesting for the very same reason. Their CA's are both used in combat phase. It may be a bit hard to place them in such way, that targeted unit is wholly within 12" and, interestingly, guard has advantage here over saurus or knights. Priest has one big problem - his abilities are used in hero phase, so you will have to correctly preplace him to be used in the following turn. Still, it may be worth it, because priest a squishy and can be sniped out. His abilities are awesome too. Warden is 100% skip. Want to buff guard? Take Oldblood. Want to protect Slann? Take Guard. Poor guy. 3) 15 CCP category would be 100% once per game summon. If you are lucky or go 4d3, you have a chance to get this guys by turn 2 and still have something like 10 skinks to bring in the endgame. This tier includes starpriest, starseer, sunblood, astrolith and kroxigors. The common problem they share - they are mostly support heroes, that you want from turn 1. Starseer has a gimmick, however. His staff works in the charge phase. So, if you somehow has 15 CCP and want a decisive charge to go off, don't forget about it. He still can pull his weight if summoned turn 2. Sunblood, once again, can be useful is summoned early and his CA is used in combat phase too. The question is, do you really need that +1 to-wound so much? And if yes, why don't you already have a sunblood? Both astrolith and starpriest are not worth it, IMO. You already, probably, have the former and rarely need too. And paying 15 CCP for it... why would anyone do that? And starpriest has priest's problem, but for 15 CCP instead of 10. This leaves us with kroxigors. Which are, tbh, pretty nice. They need a reliable charge, so you, probably want a starseer nearby, which will grant them battle synergy in addition. They don't need much buffs, and if starseer is the general (which you, probably, want him to be), he can command them All-Out attack/defence. You also can summon a squad with a moonhammer or without one, depending on the target. Overall, they look like a solid choice. 4) If you reach 20 CCP tier, things are probably already going your way. You are reaching that much CCP on turn 4, on average, or turn 3, if you are lucky. With 4d3 you are more likely to reach it turn 3, which is still pretty much viable and may impact the game. The good news is that the choices are solid. Bastiladon will probably be a worse in terms of damage than two salamanders, but he is still a tank and a strong psychological weapon. Scar-Vet on Carno is terrifying horde killer. Once again, he needs a starseer to pull off 9" charge, but can buff himself in the following combat phase. Warriors are also very solid choice, since 20 bodies = 40 celestite weapons attacks. You may chose between spears and clubs depending on the situation. And they will hit hard whatever they charge, even when unbuffed. Also, they are 20 bodies, which can take objectives. Should I even mention a starseer? 5) 25 CCP. How did you even collected that much? Or why? You are, probably, stomped your opponent into the dust by the end of turn 2, if you didn't need anything to summon so far. And, to be honest, choices here are... not that they are bad, they are just like 20 CCP or worse and why would you ever want anythign from here? You are reaching this with 4d3 on turn 3 or with 3d3 on turn 4 rolling just a little above average in both cases. I don't know, how would anything from this list to win the game, if something from 10-20 CCP already didn't. Oldblood on Carno. Really, why he is 5 CCP more expensive than ScarVet? Want CA? Go for foot version. Want Carno? Go for ScarVet. Meh. Stegadon is good, but he is not even a hero. Flamers won't reach the target at all. Bow is stricktly worse than two salamanders and combat stats are not exceptional. I don't see why you would need one on turn 4. Even on turn 3. Troglodon. This one must be a joke. For 25 CCP he is going to do about as much in melee and 10 CCP-worth units and his abilities won't be used before the following hero phase. Which is turn 4 or 5. The worst choice for summoning. Ever. 6) 30 CCP. Really? If you roll on average with 3d3 CCP per turn, you are getting this ones on turn 5. If you roll perfectly - every single of 12 d3's are 3 - on turn 4. If you are gaining 4d3 per turn - one turn earlier with the same conditions. Once again, choices are solid. But why you ever want them by the end of the game? 10 skinks may decide more at this stage than single Stegadon. Anyway: Skink Chief on Stegadon. Same as stegadon, but can actually buff himself, if he charges successfuly. Not that it means anything on turn 5. Engine of the Gods. Same, but can roll 2d6 or 3d6 and heal itself for 0 wounds because it is at full. Or even summon 10 warriors. Let's just finish this. Conclusion Looks like skink spam is not dead. You cannot swarm enemy with objective-stealing skink horde anymore, but they are still seems like the most effictient unit to summon. Conteders are hunting packs, guard, warriors and, maybe, kroxigors. Somethimes you are going to need a support hero and somtimes you are lucky enough to bring a bastiladon. That's my thoughts. Now I would be happy to hear yours.
My quick 2 cents because I had 3 games with just a Slann, no Astro or Trogg, in all of my games the most I could summon ONCE was a unit of 10 Skinks D3 is too unreliable, one of my games a rolled 1s on all General rolls and Forgoing spells, so by turn 3 because I needed the extra spell I had 4 points. Big woop If you cant forgo each spell then summoning is dead in normal lists
why in the world would skinks be 50 additional wounds to your army? I assume that's a typo? Also, melee units are currently much more viable than previously. We got CP to burn for re-rolls, the hunter's constalation which we can switch at will, the starseer's staf & cogs. It should be reasonably doable to make the charge. Pretty much this, the RNG is terrible & if it is truly only 1 D3 per slann that you can't even play a numbers game by just fielding multiple slann (not unless you want to field 5-6 of them... which'd be a terrible army.). This is also the main reason why I'd assume you can sacrifice all spells, the D3 is already limiting enough on its own.
Well to put it into perspective one of the games was against Slaanesh, 3 Keeper of Secrets ( won mind you but it was messy) and he killed all my Ripperdactyls and I payed back by taking out a few KoS, and he had enough points to summon another, that's 360 points! And I only had 5 because it wasnt worth trying to get rid of the spell because of how much I needed it, because again, it only gets me 10 Skinks. My point, we have to build around summoning to make it work, while most armies with summoning just have to do what they do (for instance Tzeentch) and bam they have it. We have to dedicate resources to something that probably wont bare fruit, it just seems like a pointless gimmick which could be replaced by...anything else
You can't take 2 different armies and expect the summoning mechanic to be identical. The summoning in Slaanesh is much different than how it is in Seraphon. Alligiance abilities in general just can't be compared across armies, because a combination of spells, artefacts, alligiance abilities, warscrolls etc. are all piled together and the army is balanced based on this as a whole. If you go into your game and expect to summon the power of a Keeper of Secrets each turn, I can fully understand why you are disappointed. In the past Seraphon with Thunderquake was literally nothing without the summoning - It was the backbone of the army. Summoning has changed from being the backbone of the army and to be complimentary to the army.
That not what I was saying at all, Im saying why can an army summon something with that power by just doing what it does, they've found ways for other armies to do things like that, and our remain uninspired and left worse then before. Also no, I wouldnt like a KoS alternative each turn, being able to summon something like this at least once a game and not having to build a list around that concept is what Im saying. Because at the moment if you want an adequate list in summoning you would need at least 2 Slann or Trogg in any combination and an Astrolith as well, and thats 660 points right there, and even then on average that 8 points and thats not too bad really, its a unit of skinks or something bigger next turn, it could also produce more points or it could also produce 4, why does it need to be random? It isnt complimentary as it doesnt enhance the army in a flavourful way, its an unappetising side dish
Armies are different. It is thematic and fluffy for Slaanesh to gain summoning points by being hurt and hurting others. I'm sure they could have figured out some different summoning system for us, but this is what we got. I guess the D3 is to make it a little random and create exciting moments when you suddenly roll like a god. I suppose it is also to prevent you from entirely mapping out your next few turns in regards to what you will bring in. I'm not saying this is positive, but that's the only reason I can see it being D3 rather than a 2 every turn. It is complimentary to me because your army doesn't rely on being able to summon in unit after unit to win the game, since our units actually got teeth and our lists on their own got gas now, but rather you can bring in stuff depending on the situation. Do you need skinks to screen? Or deepstrike? Or threaten objectives? Etc.
I mean, if you summon 10 skinks every turn, it would be 50 skinks in 5. In terms of wound count, it is the best investment. Of course, in reality we can count on 20-30 at best. Yes, I noted that you can use starseer. The problem is that you always need CP eslewhere. The good thing, that you can make charge almost 100% with 3d6+1(+3 with cogs) rerollable. That's why I think, that starseer in the summoning list is a must. But it would be nice if they rebalanced the summoning of other armies in the same name. 2000 pts Starbrone army is about 2200 pts army actually, while FEC or Slaanesh can easily be about 3k. And their summoning is so easy. Slannesh - just receive wounds, you are going to do it in every game regardless of anything. You literally have 3 units, sacrificing nothing. Same for tzeentch - you are going to cast anyway. It doesn't look as mad as slaanesh, but it is still basically free. FEC or LoN must sacrifice CP, but this is still actually a snap of fingers. I think, seraphon summoning was the most balanced in 2.0 AoS. I am ok with toning it down, but they went a little too far, IMO.
I mean I have zero insider knowledge of how they balance armies, but I'm fairly sure that the army as a whole is balanced around their summoning potential. This would mean in the case of FEC everything is basically overcosted or the warscrolls are slightly weaker to take into account the additional units being summoned onto the table. It makes no sense that a 2.000 pts. FEC army is balanced according to the other armies without taking into account the additional units they will bring onto the board. Same with Slaanesh - They have zero survivability and certainly rely on their Locus of Diversion and being able to summon new units onto the field. Having played Slaanesh myself their summoning system is certainly flawed too. You run into situations where you meet nothing but 1 wound models, meaning you get 0 depravity from killing things. At the same time you also run into armies that shoot you to pieces and with the most recent Slaanesh nerf to the summoning, you need to lose 3 Keepers before you can bring another on the table. Obviously there are matchups where you meet multiple wound units (like Ogors or Orruks) and just harvest summoning points like mad, but the other matchups are straightup awful. Seraphon summoning is probably one of the more reliable summoning systems.
neither of these are true the terrorgiest is considered to be one of the best monsters in the game both cost and effect wise and ghouls are solid melee hammers it's why they are still one of the better armies in the game even after they got the heck nurfed out of them
it's fine that we need to build around it. Issue is that right now even if we do build around it it seems to achieve very little and can be completly screwed over by RNG & a halfway capable opponent. A right, that was not clear. Tzeentch at least can be shot down relativly easily as they have a relativly high cost compared to the rate they generate points. Imho, theirs is the best version of summoning. It's fluffy, it's reasonably reliable when you want to build a strategy around it, but it's also reasonably easy to mitigate (start murdering wizards and their point generation plummets). Our previous summoning was horrificly boring & quite broken (especially when combiend with a slann who'd just teleport away from everything). But now it's barely functional at all, especially if the whole "sacrifice max 1 spell/model" ends up being correct. They do, in theory. But as we all know GW isn't exactly the greatest at accuratly balancing things
Ummm....I apologize if I sound contrarian but RAW means that our summoning is neither backbone NOR complementary. We just don't gain enough summoning points to be a viable tactic... on average if we were to use the 3d3 setup as the op mentions we would be able to summon in an entire game about 2 units of skinks and if lucky, by turn 4 3x Kroxigors. while losing the opportunity to cast 4 or 5 spells throughout the game. The exchange is not equal... and this coming from an army feared for it's summoning. I just hope that GHB2020 addresses this problem.... a possible fix would be: 1) remove the spell penalty for summoning points (not great but right now the exchange is not an equal value proposition) 2) give the army general a free 1d3 summoning points for being the general. This would put us at approximately 8 summoning points a turn which, while not broken, will make our summoning choices a bit more tactically viable.
Honestly not sure what was wrong with the old rules, the only reason we relied on summoning so much from the Slann was because really they had no spells to cast, no good ones anyway. But honestly Comets Call, Celestial Equilibrium and all those Bound Endless spells (purple sun is amazing and worth it everytime) it would be hard choice to choose the points or the spells. That would make us a flexible army, great wizards able to call down element or ally when needed, not a chance to
- Made slann too important - Wasn't very fun to play against or with - Borderline OP due to the absolute deranged amount of units you can spam with the right set-up - Everything else was clearly weaker so no real choice/alternative So yeah, the old system definitly needed changing, & not just cuz the slann had no spells to cost.