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AoS Double Battalions Worth It?

Discussion in 'Seraphon Discussion' started by Putzfrau, Mar 24, 2020.

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  1. Putzfrau
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    Putzfrau Well-Known Member

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    Hello Lustrians!

    So i've been messing around with battalions a lot and i was curious what everyones take is. Our battalions are pretty restrictive, and while not super expensive aren't cheap either. The buffs for the most part are pretty good, but not a no-brainer at the cost. Which means you'd largely be using them to lower drops.

    Seraphon seem to be a high drop army. We have a lot of buffing characters, tons of units, and fitting it all in sends drops through the roof. A single battalion helps mitigate this a little bit... but a lot of the time its just a matter of going from "i've thrown drops to the wind" to that middling 7/8ish range.

    I started trying to combine battalions (as evidenced by my double sunclaw list i posted a week or so ago) and quickly ran into a problem. A lot of the coalesced battalions want a specific constellation. Thunderquake wants thunderlizards, while firelance and sunclaw both thrive in Koatl's claw. Starborne is a little more all over the place but you still probably aren't taking something like the Sunclaw Templehost in a FoS list.

    Shadowstrike (at least for coalesced) is really the only battalion that can function in either constellation, so it started being my "second" battalion for lack of a better term. I've started to really come around on some of the Sunclaw/Shadowstrike or ThunderQuake/Shadowstrike lists but it's still ~300 points in just battalions.

    With all that in mind, i'd love to hear your guys input.

    Have you messed around with double battalion lists?
    Has anyone played a game with one?
    Do you think are battalions are "worth" doubling up on?
    Or, is the sacrifice simply too high. Our units aren't exactly cheap, and 300 points is another fat unit on the table, or multiple buffing characters.
     
    Putzfrau, Mar 24, 2020
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  2. LizardWizard
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    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    At the moment my thought processes is this:

    The armies who scare me as Seraphon:
    • DoT
    • DoK
    • Fyreslayers
    • OBR
    • Bonesplitterz Rogue Idol Ed.
    DoT: I am not out dropping them. Their top lists at the moment are all 1 or 2 drops.

    DoK: Not too concerned about dictating turn order. I can screen them if they are able to reach me turn one. If they make me go first I can still reach them. So drops only matter to specific battle plans.

    Fyreslayers: I definitely want to get to objectives before them in most cases. Fyreslayers tend to be 8+ drops as well. However, I would rather have more units and more support heroes than winning drops vs them. Sepcially since we are pretty well able to kill their support heroes now.

    OBR: Pretty indifferent to turn order with the exception of Duality of Death.

    Rogue Idols: I would like to go first so I can try to nuke some of their supporting wizards. Screening the 24"+ flying rogue idols is not always doable. If they are Kunnin Rukk I won't out drop them even with dual Battalions.
     
    LizardWizard, Mar 24, 2020
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  3. Putzfrau
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    Putzfrau Well-Known Member

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    Where do you see idoneth and Big Waagh falling in there? I guess i'm pretty concerned with something like hallowheart too, which is coming in that ~4 drop range and absolutely nuking all our characters even with screens. A lot of OBR lists too can come in in that 4/5 range if they are using the mortek guard battalion.

    Largely tho, it seems like you're treating drops as not the biggest issue?
     
    Putzfrau, Mar 24, 2020
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  4. Erta Wanderer
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    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    how on earth is a hollow heart list getting 4 drops?
     
    Erta Wanderer, Mar 24, 2020
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  5. LizardWizard
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    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    That is true. Both Living City and Hallow Hart are a threat. Living City less so. Their redeployment limitations make them easier to play around. Hallow Heart will really come down to rather or not you manager to unbind their Soulbridge. They will be tucked far enough in their back corner in most cases that dictating turn won't mean too much.

    Drops mater a lot. And, it use to be one of our best tools for board control. Sadly, I think we are just too bad at the drop game to really aim at playing it anylonger. Battalions now feel useful largely so we can dip into Aetherquartz Brooch or other strong Seraphon artefacts.
     
    LizardWizard, Mar 24, 2020
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  6. LizardWizard
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    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    I normally see Hallow Hart list that are looking at 6+. I could believe some players are going Whitefire Retinue and then their 3 battleline.
     
    LizardWizard, Mar 24, 2020
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  7. Putzfrau
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    Putzfrau Well-Known Member

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    All their heroes into that one battalion and three battle line basically.
     
    Putzfrau, Mar 24, 2020
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  8. Erta Wanderer
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    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    i play hollow heart and while you can do that it's not a good list you wouldn't have the buff heros needed for a alpha shooting army. hand gunners need a general, iron drakes need a rune priest and phoenix guard need an anointed
     
    Erta Wanderer, Mar 24, 2020
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  9. Putzfrau
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    Putzfrau Well-Known Member

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    This largely mirrors my thinking as well. I wish i could put some more stuff into practice, but quarantine has all but eliminated my gaming opportunities.
     
    Putzfrau, Mar 24, 2020
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  10. Putzfrau
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    Putzfrau Well-Known Member

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    that's good to know! I think maybe i'm just worried too much about all our squishy buff characters getting nuked off the board before we can do anything.
     
    Putzfrau, Mar 24, 2020
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  11. LizardWizard
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    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    Idoneth and Big Waagh don't scare me too much. I have played a bunch of games vs both those armies. Matt Pashby (top ID player) is from my area. So I have gotten pretty comfortable in that match up. And Seraphon have only gotten better at dealing with them.

    One of my close clubmates and a great IJ and BW player use to mostly run Bigwaagh Ard'Boyz spam. So I am pretty comfortable with them. While a double moving Maw Krusha who can hit and wound on 2's is scary their bases makes them easy to zone. If it is just ard'boyz (the better list imo) then I feel pretty comfortable unbinding hand of gork and/or Cogs with a +2 from slann/kroak.
     
    LizardWizard, Mar 24, 2020
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  12. Putzfrau
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    Putzfrau Well-Known Member

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    The more i list design the more it feels like that slann/kroak with +2 unbind is pretty clutch just from a purely defensive standpoint.
     
    Putzfrau, Mar 24, 2020
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  13. LizardWizard
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    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    I do like your Double Sunclaw list though. It inspired my Sunclaw Firelance list. At the moment I kinda like both those battalions for Starborne more though. Rend -1 spear are damn good. Rend -2 clubs are outright scary.

    Drop count seems to matter more for glass hammers. Which is part of why I love Dracothion's Tail's ability to place brittle units into the heavens. Thunder Lizards is the only Seraphon army that I feel heavily dependent on wanting to dictate initial turn order. they are very vulnerable to wasting turn one and then getting crushed in an early enemy double turn.
     
    LizardWizard, Mar 24, 2020
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  14. Putzfrau
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    Putzfrau Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I really want to test it out. Something about 100+ bodies of decently hard hitting infantry thats reducing damage by one seems strong... but a lot of it just depends on how much any given army can remove in a turn.

    It feels like you might be able to get more out of a similar list that just uses skinks to screen and has more points freed up for a unit of salamanders or something.
     
    Putzfrau, Mar 24, 2020
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  15. Batch
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    Batch Active Member

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    Alright so the thought of this kind of inspired me to make a list...and I may actually try it out (if possible...but doubt it atm)

    Allegiance: Seraphon
    - Constellation: Fangs of Sotek
    Mortal Realm: Hysh
    Slann Starmaster (260)
    - General
    - Command Trait: Great Rememberer
    - Artefact: Itxi Grubs
    - Spell: Celestial Equilibrium
    Skink Starpriest (120)
    - Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
    - Spell: Hand of Glory
    Skink Starpriest (120)
    - Spell: Tide of Serpents
    Skink Priest (70)
    Ripperdactyl Chief (80)
    - Artefact: Serpent God's Dagger
    40 x Skinks (240)
    - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
    40 x Skinks (240)
    - Boltspitters & Moonstone Clubs
    10 x Skinks (60)
    - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
    10 x Skinks (60)
    - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
    9 x Ripperdactyl Riders (240)
    3 x Ripperdactyl Riders (80)
    Shadowstrike Starhost (170)
    Shadowstrike Starhost (170)
    Balewind Vortex (40)
    Extra Command Point (50)

    Total: 2000 / 2000
    Extra Command Points: 3
    Allies: 0 / 400
    Wounds: 160

    So we've got a tonne of CP, we're a 5 drop and deepstriking 80 skinks for 160 shots behind enemy lines seems pretty deadly and it didnt have to sacrifice wounds to be viable, on top of that we definitely have enough CP to shoot them again in their charge phase if they cant get away far enough for a confirmed 320 shots. Lastly if I get lucky with a charge you get drop the rippers in too, LoSaT the Chief (so dumb he isnt in the battalion) charge them both, hopefully successfully and dump a LOT of CP into those Rippers to blend whatever they reach.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
    Batch, Mar 25, 2020
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  16. LizardWizard
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    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    I like it!. You do need to drop one of your Artefacts to give someone the Serpent's God Dagger though.
     
    LizardWizard, Mar 25, 2020
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  17. Batch
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    Batch Active Member

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    Oof, how did I forget that. Fix'd, put it on the Chief send him on a noble quest to bring down Archaon
     
    Batch, Mar 25, 2020
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  18. Nart
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    Nart Well-Known Member

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    Definitely not competitive, but I'd like to try Sunclaw Templehost with 3x10 warriors for battleline and Carno Oldblood + Thunderquake templehost and whatever support heroes I'd have points left for. Just a big dino stampede with -2 rend carno jaws.

    For competitive point of view, I see no way to fit two battalions, without hurting the list.
     
    Nart, Mar 25, 2020
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  19. Blitzkriyg
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    Blitzkriyg Well-Known Member

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    I'm not really sold on any of the starborne battalions, I've resigned myself to expecting to have many more drops than my opponent and have designed my list and will deploy with that on mind, I think it's the best we can do
     
    Blitzkriyg, Mar 25, 2020
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  20. LizardWizard
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    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    Agreed. There aren't too many match ups were out dropping would help us or remotely available if it would.
     
    LizardWizard, Mar 25, 2020
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