Something I have been doing in all my Dracothian Tail lists lately is including the Oracle. Its been working really well. He does a good job generating more summoning points, sitting on an objective, or guarding the backfield from deepstrikes. Very versatile model all things considered. Its nice getting 5d3 summoning points a turn while also spamming mws with Kroak. Sometimes Ill LOSAT him behind the enemy lines near some guys I want to spam MWs onto. Then they have to turn and deal with him, or let him be and let me set up for next turn. With the artifact he takes a lot more commitment than people realize, letting me nuke them on my next turn. Allegiance: Seraphon - Constellation: Dracothion's Tail Slann Starmaster (260) - General - Command Trait: Ancient Knowledge - Spell: Celestial Equilibrium - Ancient Knowledge Spell: Drain Magic Lord Kroak (320) - Spell: Mystical Unforging Saurus Astrolith Bearer (140) Skink Oracle on Troglodon (260) - Artefact: Godbeast Pendant Skink Starpriest (120) - Spell: Bind Endless Spell Skink Starpriest (120) - Spell: Tide of Serpents 10 x Skinks (60) - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers 10 x Skinks (60) - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers 10 x Skinks (60) - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers 12 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240) 12 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240) Balewind Vortex (40) Bound Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (70) Total: 1990 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 0 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 104 edit: changed some words around so my scatterbrain ideas make sense. lol
I like the list, but choice of spells a bit confusing. Why mystical unforging on the kroak? Stellar tempest seems like the best choice to me, since you are rarely getting other spells in range by turn 1, but it is very possbile with ST. And it is always at least an okaysh target for it. If not - just shift to another thing. Also, why are you taking Bind Endless Spell on Starpriest while not having Hand of Glory or Celestial Harmony? Hand of Glory is very good if you want to launch a salamander unit somewhere far away from heroes. And Harmony is good even in Starborne - some armies can easily remove all 9 handlers in one activation and leave you very vulnerable to battleshock, if heroes are not near. Besides, Bind Endless Spell won't be useful in every game - some armies just don't bring predatory endless spells. And if they do, than you can easily dispel them with Kroak/Slann. What I'd do is probably throw tide of serpents on trog, since he is more likely to be in range, and give starpriests Hand of Glory and Celestial Harmony, or at least Hand of Glory.
Wel my thought process was assuming that my opponents would go first against Kroak to try to do what damage they could and get on objectives. In that case I picked some defensive spells for first turn. I can drain magic what they manage to resolve and bind the ones that are out of range so that I can use them against them. Mystical unforging turn 1 is a hedge against high wound heroes with powerful artifacts. I’m hoping I can kill the artifact if I can’t kill the hero and neuter their power somewhat. Then end of turn I can forget those and get more useful spells like tempest to use the remainder of the game. but maybe I’m overthinking it and getting too cute? Quite possible. You may be right and the best bet is to just take more generic useful spells right away .
Mystical Unforging is interesting, but I prefer consistency in my lists. As great as it is to remove an artefact from the opponent, which artefact is so crucial to remove that you want to rely on a 5+ and give up a brilliant horde clear spell? Im not really sure beside maybe Ethereal Amulet on stuff like a Maw Krusha or Terrorgeist. It is certainly very strong against your Salamanders and their -2 rend would have a huge impact if you removed it, but you could easily shower them in MW from Kroak anyways. 5+ is just so unreliable imo, I think I would prefer Stellar Tempest to clear horde units off objectives since that will likely be your biggest threat due to lack of bodies. Im also not really sure about the 2 Starpriests. They do give you a chance to generate CPs (although rather low chance and you already got Kroak + Slann) and cast a couple of spells, but I would consider getting at least 1 Priest. +1 to hit is more damage than Serpent Staff on the Salamanders. The Star-stone Staff ability giving them +1 to save and run+shoot+charge is also great. You already have the Trog for Arcane Vassal, so you should be able to cast through the Trog on the majority of the field, and if they come close simply casting from Kroak with Balewind and Astrolith should be enough. I would switch up the spells as @Nart said and swap 1 Starpriest for a normal Priest. It would give you 60 pts. leftover, which is enough for either Bound Purple Sun or Bound Aethervoid Pendulum. Thats what I would do - I do like the list a lot! Im tempted to give the Trog some games.
TBH, I would never go first against such a list. Willingly giving chance of double turn to seraphon is a suicide. The fact is, if you are taking the first turn, bringing in a salamander pack is the best thing you can do and they are easily denied good position by screen. My opponents often have less deployment choices and almost always take the first turn. And then they are getting double-turned, they complain how seraphon are broken. Even when I tell them that they should consider giving the first turn to me, but they insist, that they want to do at least something. So yes, you can trick a less experienced player in getting first turn, but relying on opponent's mistakes is not a good strategy. You should think about either scenario. What if your opponent gives the first turn to you? What if your opponent won't rush to your positions, but apply defensive buffs and moves screening chaff forward to deny your alpha-strike? What if he is sending chaff to objectives and places an army in position to counter-attack? And I view Mystical Unforging as a way to deal additional damage to certain heroes. Breaking the artefact is a bonus. The only army which is worth the try is probably Fyreslayers, but you are going to be very lucky to bypass Nulsidian icon and then throw 5+. But if you hapen to be lucky, this will help you alot. Etherial amulet is not as scary as it used to be because of the amount of MW we can deal to our opponents.
yeah you’re gonna want that spell to break the Ethereal Amulet on my Maw-Krusha haha because 3+ rr1 save is no joke with a 6+ FNP. For instance. Also doppelgänger Cloak is somewhat popular. Or even Aetherquartz Brooch on an enemy who needs CP you can CP starve them. I think it’s a fantastic spell myself.
I like the list. It is very tech heavy and versatile. The main vulnerability is vs other magic supremacy armies like DoT or LoN/OBR w/Nagash.
Between kroak, slann and oracle i have 8 dispel attempts that are board wide, and kroak and slann will have bonuses to dispel and unbind after buffs are up. Do you think those matchups are that bad? Thats interesting about the math being better with the priest. Also good point about bound purple sun. Will be useful vs orks and dwarves. Will probably make the swap you suggested. I think thats a fair point. Yeah i love the spell too. Might be better as a spell that I swap into turn 2 or 3 though when they are closer in range.
I don't think it is too bad. Nagash and LoC/Fateweaver can be an issue though. Most of the armies work will be accomplished in its herophase. The dice matching of LoC and the +3 of Nagash will leave you roughly at a 50% or less chance of succeeding on your important spells assuming you have your casting buffs up.
Not only that but Lord of Change (and the other big birds) can learn your spell if they manage to unbind it. Tzeentch casting Comet's Call on all our squishy heroes sounds like a nightmare.
I was watching THWG (Honestwargamer) on twitch playing a friendly game on TTS of Chaos Ascendant (looks really strong with Pink Horror spam!) vs. an almost identical Seraphon list. Robs opponent was Obaid, who got 5th in the recent (16th May) TTS tournament consisting of 30 players with a 2-1 record - Lost to rank 4 player. And yes, they didnt bother to roll for sides and yes the Seraphon player got to use his RSE - I guess it was to showcase it, although it wasnt used for its ability, but for putting a Troglodon + Astrolith inside and then using the Trog as a beacon for Kroak's spells. Unfortunately Rob had terrible internet so the game (approx 2 hours) was split into 6 seperate videoes - https://www.twitch.tv/videos/633280676?filter=archives&sort=time He used the list in the bottom here - https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/team-troglodon-world-police/ Anyways, it was really interesting to see the match be played out, because you get a good idea of where the true hammer of the army lies. Kroak is obviously a beast, but Salamanders can really put the hurt on. The interesting thing here is that he doesnt go for the Skink Priest or Skink Starpriest at all. I guess it somewhat makes sense, since the extra damage output (see the math I showed in above post) is just not really worth it. A Starpriest is 1,5 Salamander, but only adds 1 damage on average vs 4+ save, where as his points are worth about 5 damage against 4+ save if used for more Salamanders. The Starpriest is really only good on a big volume of attacks like 40 Skinks or Saurus Knights with all their jaw attacks etc. I read the book and right away fell in love with Skinks and especially Fangs of Sotek with big blobs of Skinks buffed by a Priest and Starpriest, but if you want to optimize it, it looks like it just isnt the way forward. You are seemingly way better off going for maybe 5-6x 10 Skinks to put screens and bodies on objectives, and use Salamanders/Kroak to rinse units. At first I wasnt fond of the Dracothian's Tail (partly because I was blinded by the love to Fangs of Sotek), but after watching a couple of games on TTS and listening to some of the guys making a splash with Seraphon on TTS, Im really starting to dig Dracothian's Tail. Obaid used a non constellation list, but I think this is a huge mistake. Making a list of 2x3 Salamanders and keeping both in the sky for the first couple of turns is such huge value. Your opponent has to constantly deploy/position and think about the deepstrike potential that can come at any time if you teleport a Slann and use the DT ability, so he will likely keep units hanging back and doing nothing. If he makes a mistake, you go for the throat right away. Stuff like this just flat out wins a lot of games. I think many of us laughed at the Troglodon at first, but I think there is value in him. The fact Arcane Vassal has unlimited range on the Troglodon is huge. You can play so defensive with Kroak, yet still be offensive with the Trog (especially if you give him the DT artefact). TLDR: I think your list is great. I would consider switching the two Skink Priest/Starpriests out for something else, like 5 Guards + 1 Salamander + Endless Spell (Purple Sun maybe?) or more Skink screens etc. I would give the Slann Mystical Unforging and have his secondary spell be Celestial Equilibrium. In case you run against a lot of endless spells, let him swap his Mystical Unforging to Drain Magic at the end of your turn 1 hero phase. Kroak should have Stellar Tempest for sure and I would probably give the Troglodon the Tide of Snakes. He has +1 base on the warscroll, possibly another from Astrolith and one from Celestial Equilibrium. CV8 is no issue. Hand of Glory or Celestial Harmony is great, but if you switch out the Skink support heroes, you dont really have anything to use all those CPs for beside reroll 1s to save, hit or battleshock, so you should have plently to throw around. Spoiler: Backbone list idea Allegiance: Seraphon - Constellation: Dracothion's Tail Leaders Slann Starmaster (260) - General - Command Trait: Ancient Knowledge - Spell: Celestial Equilibrium - Ancient Knowledge Spell: Mystical Unforging Lord Kroak (320) - Spell: Stellar Tempest Saurus Astrolith Bearer (140) Skink Oracle on Troglodon (260) - Spell: Tide of Serpents - Artefact: Godbeast Pendant Battleline 10 x Skinks (60) - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers 10 x Skinks (60) - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers 10 x Skinks (60) - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers 5 x Saurus Guard (100) Units 12 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240) 12 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240) Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs Balewind Vortex (40) Bound Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (70) Total: 1850 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 0 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 106 This is basically your list, minus the 2 Skink heroes, added in 5 Guards for protection and some spells swapped about. 5D3 CCP per turn with a list that looks very real. Loads of extra Skinks or Salamanders. Ontop of this you still have another 150 pts. to get something juicy. Sorry for the long post! Just really hyped/excited about Dracothian's Tail and cant wait to get my dudes on the table.
Those lists had a lot of skinks!! Good list though. Not really my style I think. I want to be paying points for better things and then summoning my skinks for free each turn. I think I’m going to keep the priest and the star priest. The Oracle cannot take spells from the spell lore. He only knows the spells listed on his warscroll: arcane bolt, mystic shield, and comets call. Because of this the starpriests still have uses bringing hand of glory or tide of serpents. Starpriests also have a useful spell in Blazing Starlight which stacks with geminids. New list after everyone’s suggestions. Allegiance: Seraphon - Constellation: Dracothion's Tail Lord Kroak (320) - Spell: Stellar Tempest Slann Starmaster (260) - General - Command Trait: Ancient Knowledge - Spell: Celestial Equilibrium - Ancient Knowledge Spell: Mystical Unforging Skink Oracle on Troglodon (260) - Artefact: Godbeast Pendant Skink Starpriest (120) - Spell: Hand of Glory Skink Priest (70) Saurus Astrolith Bearer (140) 10 x Skinks (60) - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers 10 x Skinks (60) - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers 10 x Skinks (60) - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers 12 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240) 12 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240) Balewind Vortex (40) Bound Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (70) Bound Purple Sun of Shyish (60) Total: 2000 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 0 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 104
Good points. I often find CD range on kroak still too short even with all the buffs. Maybe, because I mostly faced more or less ranged armies. But still, I am concerned about trog's survivability. 12 wounds, 4+ save is still not enough survivability for 260 pts behemoth. Stuff like flamers or mortek crawlers will just snap it's neck from range. I also agree, that starpriests are not necessary without 40 skinks block. Not useless, but not necessary too. Same for priests. Salamanders don't really need them. However, I must note on celestial harmony and hand of glory - they are amazing, when you are throwing a unit far away, where heroes cannot support it with command abilities. Just a thing to keep in mind - it literally cost me a game on a tournament. I also wonder why some top lists include a bastiladon or two? They are seem fun and moderately strong, even broken in a certain match-ups, but taking them in a tournament list, which aims for 3-0/5-0 looks questionable.
I think it is because of how good they look on paper. I can see arguments for taking one over a unit of Salamanders if you are in a heavy deamon meta though. They are great vs DoT.
Why wouldn't he? The spells are good, but not good enough to justify bringing a skink hero for them. Two starpriests = salamander pack or 40 skinks.
Well, I can see, why people may think, that they are good. I don't see how they end up in tops. On the matter of DoT - I even want to bring a TQTH and see how it'll go. If I manage to kill LoC fast, this may even work.
Just played against a list like this with a saurus based starborne list i was working on. We rolled relocation orb (gag) and the whole 3 points for bottom of turn kept the game firmly out of reach for me, but it was an interesting battle. We basically wiped each other out. My opponent ran a combination of nimble and cloak of feathers for a -1 to hit +1 save trog that kept it surprisingly durable. Also, running two squads of 40 saurus into Stellar Tempast + Tide of Serpents was brutal.
It is allowed. It is just an issue with the list tool. I have to manually add the spells to my list after I generate them from the web community tool.
Never ever trust list-building apps. Its a shame, that you have to sacrifice both constellation and command trait/relic slot to do it. It is a shame, that you have to make starseer or slann the warlord for this. Also worth paying attention at realm spells - some of them give good defensive buffs. Still, I think that the best investment is turning his spell to CCP.