8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

[NIGHTBRINGER]

s it just melee magical attacks? Or is it also shooting?

The BotWD works against "all Wounds caused by spells, magic weapons and magical attacks". So shooting, CC and magic. Even hits inflicted by Miscasts count as magical attacks, so it would work even against that!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Round 11, Match #4 - The Black Guard try their hand against the mighty Savage Orc Big'uns!

Key rules in play:

• Black Guard: ASF, Murderous Prowess, Stubborn
• Savage Orcs: Choppas, Frenzy, Warpaint

A bloody affair, with each side butchering the other. Ultimately though, the Savage Orcs have more bodies to soak up the damage.



With the loss, the Black Guard find themselves in third last place (1 point ahead of the Soul Grinder, who will fight later on in this round). Can the Black Guard finish ahead of the Soul Grinder by the end of the tournament?

On the other side of the spectrum, the Savage Orcs are just 1 point behind the HPA (who has yet to fight in this round) and the Skullcrushers. Will they be able to overtake either of them, or will their tough remaining schedule do them in?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

The BotWD works against "all Wounds caused by spells, magic weapons and magical attacks". So shooting, CC and magic. Even hits inflicted by Miscasts count as magical attacks, so it would work even against that!

So OP...

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Round 11, Match #4 - The Black Guard try their hand against the mighty Savage Orc Big'uns!

Key rules in play:

• Black Guard: ASF, Murderous Prowess, Stubborn
• Savage Orcs: Choppas, Frenzy, Warpaint

View attachment 91411

A bloody affair, with each side butchering the other. Ultimately though, the Savage Orcs have more bodies to soak up the damage.

View attachment 91412

With the loss, the Black Guard find themselves in third last place (1 point ahead of the Soul Grinder, who will fight later on in this round). Can the Black Guard finish ahead of the Soul Grinder by the end of the tournament?

On the other side of the spectrum, the Savage Orcs are just 1 point behind the HPA (who has yet to fight in this round) and the Skullcrushers. Will they be able to overtake either of them, or will their tough remaining schedule do them in?

Wow.

So I think in this case the point about the views being skewed doesn't apply. The Black Guard really don't belong in this contest of champions...

Well, they don't stand a chance against the Destroyer, they will lose against the Demigryph Knights due to their armour.

Witch Elves?... Not sure actually. Also I THINK they will squeeze out a victory against the HPA but I think it could go either way.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

So I think in this case the point about the views being skewed doesn't apply. The Black Guard really don't belong in this contest of champions...

On the plus side, they are pretty much guaranteed to finish above the Arachnarok. At the moment, they also have a slight lead on the Soul Grinder. At the very least, they're doing better than a thought they would.

Where would you draw the cutoff for who you feel doesn't belong in this contest of champions? And who would you replace them with?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Round 11, Match #5 - Chaos Warriors vs. Hammerers

Key rules in play:

• Chaos Warriors: Mark of Nurgle
• Hammerers: ASL, Stubborn

This was a tricky little matchup (matches involving the Hammerers often are). Fielded as a Horde, the CW actually end up barely winning. At 5 wide each, the Hammerers take the matchup. This opened up a dilemma as to what formations to use, as the CW want to go as wide a possible and the Hammerers as narrow as possible. If the Hammerers go 5 wide, the CW can counter them with 6 wide. Since I don't want to give one side an edge in terms of getting to counter the other in formations, this opens up the possibility of a draw scenario. Ultimately though I was able to find a formation that one unit (in this case the Hammerers) can field without the other being able to apply a successful counter formation. Hammerers at 6 wide, cannot be counter by 7 wide CW because they can only get 6 models into b2b, due to their larger base size. As a result, the Hammerers can lay down their unit at 6 wide regardless of what the CW do, and thus they are awarded the victory.

The hammerers are slightly out-wounded each round, but their starting number of models was still (barely) sufficient to wear down the CW. This is one of those ultra fragile matches where the outcome can swing one way or another based on unit formation and I suspect... starting points size. Although I haven't ran the numbers, the CW might win the matchup if it was contested at 500 or 600 points. As it stands though, no such luck for them.



The Hammerers and the Chaos Warriors find themselves tied with each other in 10th place overall. Which of the two will finish higher in the end?

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl do you still consider the Chaos Warriors unit to be OP?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Round 11, Match #5 - Chaos Warriors vs. Hammerers

Key rules in play:

• Chaos Warriors: Mark of Nurgle
• Hammerers: ASL, Stubborn

View attachment 91480

This was a tricky little matchup (matches involving the Hammerers often are). Fielded as a Horde, the CW actually end up barely winning. At 5 wide each, the Hammerers take the matchup. This opened up a dilemma as to what formations to use, as the CW want to go as wide a possible and the Hammerers as narrow as possible. If the Hammerers go 5 wide, the CW can counter them with 6 wide. Since I don't want to give one side an edge in terms of getting to counter the other in formations, this opens up the possibility of a draw scenario. Ultimately though I was able to find a formation that one unit (in this case the Hammerers) can field without the other being able to apply a successful counter formation. Hammerers at 6 wide, cannot be counter by 7 wide CW because they can only get 6 models into b2b, due to their larger base size. As a result, the Hammerers can lay down their unit at 6 wide regardless of what the CW do, and thus they are awarded the victory.

The hammerers are slightly out-wounded each round, but their starting number of models was still (barely) sufficient to wear down the CW. This is one of those ultra fragile matches where the outcome can swing one way or another based on unit formation and I suspect... starting points size. Although I haven't ran the numbers, the CW might win the matchup if it was contested at 500 or 600 points. As it stands though, no such luck for them.

View attachment 91481

The Hammerers and the Chaos Warriors find themselves tied with each other in 10th place overall. Which of the two will finish higher in the end?

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl do you still consider the Chaos Warriors unit to be OP?

I think it was me who thought the WoC with MoN were OP.

They're still really good, but not top of the pack evidently.

Although I do wonder whether we should have given them more stuff... White Lions with BotWD seems like they've been given a lot... ah well. I don't think it matters to much at this point.

I did think they would be in the running for one of the podium spots though...

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I think it was me who thought the WoC with MoN were OP.

I believe @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl despises the MoK AHW build. That said, he and I have been debating this topic for years.

I maintain that while the WoC are undoubtedly a top tier faction, it isn't the actual Chaos Warriors that make them so. WoC players all typically know this fact.

They're still really good, but not top of the pack evidently.

Agreed. Good but expensive. Still a solid choice, but not game breaking.

 

[Imrahil]

Round 11, Match #5 - Chaos Warriors vs. Hammerers

Key rules in play:

• Chaos Warriors: Mark of Nurgle
• Hammerers: ASL, Stubborn

View attachment 91480

This was a tricky little matchup (matches involving the Hammerers often are). Fielded as a Horde, the CW actually end up barely winning. At 5 wide each, the Hammerers take the matchup. This opened up a dilemma as to what formations to use, as the CW want to go as wide a possible and the Hammerers as narrow as possible. If the Hammerers go 5 wide, the CW can counter them with 6 wide. Since I don't want to give one side an edge in terms of getting to counter the other in formations, this opens up the possibility of a draw scenario. Ultimately though I was able to find a formation that one unit (in this case the Hammerers) can field without the other being able to apply a successful counter formation. Hammerers at 6 wide, cannot be counter by 7 wide CW because they can only get 6 models into b2b, due to their larger base size. As a result, the Hammerers can lay down their unit at 6 wide regardless of what the CW do, and thus they are awarded the victory.

The hammerers are slightly out-wounded each round, but their starting number of models was still (barely) sufficient to wear down the CW. This is one of those ultra fragile matches where the outcome can swing one way or another based on unit formation and I suspect... starting points size. Although I haven't ran the numbers, the CW might win the matchup if it was contested at 500 or 600 points. As it stands though, no such luck for them.

View attachment 91481

The Hammerers and the Chaos Warriors find themselves tied with each other in 10th place overall. Which of the two will finish higher in the end?

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl do you still consider the Chaos Warriors unit to be OP?

Good determination of unit widths.
Not the outcome I suspected

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Not the outcome I suspected

Me neither. I thought it would be a very close fought victory for the CW.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Round 11, Match #6 - A battle between two of our top performers: Beasts of Nurgle versus Har Ganeth Executioners

Key rules in play:

• Beasts of Nurgle: Daemon of Nurgle, Daemonic, Poisoned Attacks, Random Attacks (D6+1), Regeneration
• Executioners: Murderous Prowess, ASF and ASL cancel each other out

The Beasts of Nurgle are an unstoppable force. The Executioners are a solid unit, but they stood no chance. The Beasts simply have too many great special rules.



Looking at their remaining schedules, I can fairly confidently say that:

1. The Beasts of Nurgle are pretty much assured to be our silver medalist
2. The Executioners are no longer contenders for the podium (as they are currently 5 points behind the third place competitors)

Do you guys agree or disagree?

Two matches left to go in Round 11!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Round 11, Match #6 - A battle between two of our top performers: Beasts of Nurgle versus Har Ganeth Executioners

Key rules in play:

• Beasts of Nurgle: Daemon of Nurgle, Daemonic, Poisoned Attacks, Random Attacks (D6+1), Regeneration
• Executioners: Murderous Prowess, ASF and ASL cancel each other out

View attachment 91508

The Beasts of Nurgle are an unstoppable force. The Executioners are a solid unit, but they stood no chance. The Beasts simply have too many great special rules.

View attachment 91509

Looking at their remaining schedules, I can fairly confidently say that:

1. The Beasts of Nurgle are pretty much assured to be our silver medalist
2. The Executioners are no longer contenders for the podium (as they are currently 5 points behind the third place competitors)

Do you guys agree or disagree?

Two matches left to go in Round 11!

Hooray for the wee Beasties!!!

I mean, I thought they were good but finished in second position is definitely not where I saw them going.

Great unit, but easy to counter with a high armour save (the S4 is a real problem).

Still, I also love their lore (they act like enthusiastic puppies!).

To be honest, I never thought the Executioners would make top of the group. They are good, but without ASF and only one attack each they suffer in a lot of match-ups.

With an experienced general, they are a real flipping problem to face on the battlefield. Hide your armoured units!

Again, good but to easily countered to be OP/excellent.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I mean, I thought they were good but finished in second position is definitely not where I saw them going.

Great unit, but easy to counter with a high armour save (the S4 is a real problem).

I'm not sure if we can use the term "easily countered by armour" in reference to the Beasts. Sure they got beat by the Skullcrushers, but they did defeat the heavily armored Mournfang (2+, 6++). I'd be curious to know just how many armoured units they could actually take down. I suppose we'll gain a bit more insight once we see how they fare against the Demigryph Knights..

Looking at the field, the Beasts of Nurgle might be the unit which is the most difficult to counter. For instance, how would you counter them with your Tomb Kings army?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Round 11, Match #7 - Witch Elves versus Demigryph Knights

Key rules in play:

• Witch Elves: ASF, Murderous Prowess, Poisoned Attacks, Frenzy
• Demigryph Knights: none

Witch Elves don't like facing heavy armour, and 1+ armour is as heavy as armour gets. As a result, they weren't able to whittle down their opposition before the counterattack struck... and that was the end of it.

It's no surprise that all three of the Witch Elves' massive losses have come at the hands of the most heavily armoured units of the tournament.



With the loss, the Witch Elves are knocked down into 4th place overall, with the Trolls enjoying a 2 point lead over them. Of course the Trolls should suffer a Massive Loss against the K'daai, so the race for 3rd is a tight one. The Demigryphs, HPA and Skullcrushers all find themselves tied for 5th place, just 2 points behind the Witch Elves.

How will the top 5 round out?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I'm not sure if we can use the term "easily countered by armour" in reference to the Beasts. Sure they got beat by the Skullcrushers, but they did defeat the heavily armored Mournfang (2+, 6++). I'd be curious to know just how many armoured units they could actually take down. I suppose we'll gain a bit more insight once we see how they fare against the Demigryph Knights..

I guess the made it because they have an average of 4 attacks each with poisoned attacks rule? I'm a little surprised that they beat the Mournfang (didn't remember that match-up result). You'd think that the 3+ 6++ save would have handled most of the hits... The beasts Regen is a large problem obviously...

Looking at the field, the Beasts of Nurgle might be the unit which is the most difficult to counter. For instance, how would you counter them with your Tomb Kings army?

BAH!

With Tomb Kings, I'd probably go with a Chariots unit with the Flaming Banner and try to get the charge.

Or do a BSB with a unit with the flaming banner. Either TG with halberds or even the Ushabti with the BSB and each of them having AHW so they will end up striking first (Ushabti I3 compared to Beasts I2).

Definitely something with the Flaming Banner, at least then they only get the 5++ Daemonic ward save. Trying to do it without neutralizing the Regen is suicide. Case in point the Stalkers would not be very usefull as they'd be wounding on 5's (Initiative 2) but they'd still get the Regen save.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Round 11, Match #7 - Witch Elves versus Demigryph Knights

Key rules in play:

• Witch Elves: ASF, Murderous Prowess, Poisoned Attacks, Frenzy
• Demigryph Knights: none

View attachment 91520

Witch Elves don't like facing heavy armour, and 1+ armour is as heavy as armour gets. As a result, they weren't able to whittle down their opposition before the counterattack struck... and that was the end of it.

It's no surprise that all three of the Witch Elves' massive losses have come at the hands of the most heavily armoured units of the tournament.

View attachment 91524

With the loss, the Witch Elves are knocked down into 4th place overall, with the Trolls enjoying a 2 point lead over them. Of course the Trolls should suffer a Massive Loss against the K'daai, so the race for 3rd is a tight one. The Demigryphs, HPA and Skullcrushers all find themselves tied for 5th place, just 2 points behind the Witch Elves.

How will the top 5 round out?

This was a foregone conclusion like you say.

Can you post the standings again @NIGHTBRINGER ?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

BAH!

With Tomb Kings, I'd probably go with a Chariots unit with the Flaming Banner and try to get the charge.

Or do a BSB with a unit with the flaming banner. Either TG with halberds or even the Ushabti with the BSB and each of them having AHW so they will end up striking first (Ushabti I3 compared to Beasts I2).

Definitely something with the Flaming Banner, at least then they only get the 5++ Daemonic ward save. Trying to do it without neutralizing the Regen is suicide. Case in point the Stalkers would not be very usefull as they'd be wounding on 5's (Initiative 2) but they'd still get the Regen save.

Flaming banner is a solid choice, though I would prefer it on a unit standard bear (i.e. Tomb Guard), than an overpriced BSB who will be essentially defenseless.

Impact hits (especially flaming ones) are nice because they bypass the Beasts -1 To Hit, but I suspect the Beasts would still comfortably survive the charge and crush the chariots in a war of attrition (which is something that chariots struggle in but the Beasts excel in).\

Honestly, I'd hate to face the Beasts with Tomb Kings. Many other armies will struggle as well. A tooled up character can always do the job if you know you're going to face them and list tailor appropriately... or if you have a great generalist build like Hortennse. Then there are the usual players... purple sun, pit of shades, etc. Still, with any of my 4 armies, the Beasts are an extremely hard matchup with only a handful of viable counters between them.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Final match of Round 11! An epic battle of monsters... the Hell Pit Abomination versus the Soul Grinder!!

Key rules in play:

• HPA: Regeneration, Stubborn, Special Close Combat Attacks
• Soul Grinder: Daemonic, Daemon of Nurgle, Caught by the Iron Claw, Natural Armour (4+), Daemonbone Claw

An interesting and hard fought match. The HPA was 25 points lighter, but still managed to prevail. The contest was extremely balanced with each doing just about a wound per round. The HPA wins due to its initiative advantage (I4 vs. I3), striking the final blow just mere moments before the Soul Grinder was set to do the same.



The HPA now finds itself in sole possession of 5th place overall. I think the HPA is flying a bit under the radar. It has been one of the most consistent performers in the entire tournament. It does not get a lot of Massive Victories, but it has only suffered 3 losses in 11 matches. Only the K'daai Destroyer and Beasts of Nurgle have less losses (with 2 each) across 11 rounds of the tourney.

Can the HPA make a run at the podium? Wouldn't that be a surprise? Will it at least finish in the top 5?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Can you post the standings again @NIGHTBRINGER ?

That ends round #11, leaving only 4 rounds left to be played. And what a round it was! Lots of movement, especially in the top 8 (excluding the first and second positions which were only further solidified).




What do you guys think? Any surprises?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

That ends round #11, leaving only 4 rounds left to be played. And what a round it was! Lots of movement, especially in the top 8 (excluding the first and second positions which were only further solidified).

View attachment 91541


What do you guys think? Any surprises?

Well, I honestly didn't think the Trolls and BoN would end up where they are. I thought they were good, but not that good.

1st and 2nd are now locked in IMHO. Quite surprising. Gives me a fairly new viewpoint about my little Beasties!

@NIGHTBRINGER I agree with you on the TK's match-up. I'll post my new ideas about the WoC line-up later today.

As gone over, I definitely expected both WoC and Skullcrushers to be in the top third, so that's a surprise.

The Savage Orc's are also a bit of a surprise, I knew they were good but this pounds the point home for me.